ZYX "House" Sound

Please kindly tell me why the DD-40 is not good enough. It sounds wonderful to me with these cartridges.

I've had Rega tables before. I don't think much of them. What makes this Rega tables work for the Koetsu but not the DD-40? What makes a new table better able to resolve more and provide a better foundation?

Perhaps all we're doing is expressing personal preference. I find the DD-40 and MA-505 arm to be very good indeed, maybe not as good as the upper class Micro Seiki tables, but good enough for me.....and my Koetsu and my Shelter.

This is disturbing and confusing.

I have thoroughly tested the MA-505 and the DD-40. Both are functioning very well. I have an MS in Physics and have spent my entire career developing very high end medical and communications equipment. I thoroughly understand the mechanics and electronics of TT and cartridge behavior.

I have tested the bearings on the MA-505 arms using my own techniques and using the WallySkater. Very fluid, no rough spots both vertically and horizontally.

I've recapped the TT. The rotation speed is rock solid. Test records indicates a very stable speed.

I have listened to the Koetsu on my WOW XXL table using a brand new Audiomods 6 arm. Both are very modern products. I very much prefer the sound from the DD-40 and MA-505. The arm that came with the table (Acoustic Signature TA-2000) has been removed because it is so difficult to use.

What arm and table did the people who purchased a Koetsu in the 80s use? Were all arms and tables insufficient then?

What else should I look for in the DD-40 and MA-505 that will  tell me that they're  not good enough for the higher end cartridges? I test every piece of equipment that I put in my system with a spectrum analyzer and an oscilloscope. I can measure and optimize distortion, anti-skate, tracking force, speed stability, and frequency and time domain response. Performance is very important to me.

In summary, what tests can I perform that will show me that the DD-40 and MA-505 are inadequate for higher end cartridges? I need to see some data before I am convinced that my older tables are insufficient.

@mijostyn , thanks for your input.

I was referring to bad sounding cymbals that I've heard from past setups. I do a thorough alignment now so I don't have that problem anymore. Just bad memories. I don't care for the "clinical" sound some cartridges are known for. I have two very warm cartridges. I'm looking for a cartridge that is a bit more neutral without being "edgy".

I completely agree with you about room treatments. Last year I spend a small sum to outfit my room with Real Traps corner, first reflection, and wall traps. I'm very pleased with the result.

@rauliruegas  Thanks for your comments.

It turns out that I am the original owner of one of the DD-40 tables I own. I bought it around 1978 from a high end stereo shop. I was also eying the DDX-1000, but it was too expensive for me then. I was outfitted with a Grace F9L cartridge. So at the time, according to the stereo store (Century Stereo in San Jose, California, USA), the DDX-1000 was their top of the line TT. I bought the DD-40 knowing that it was one notch below the top of the line, but definitely not entry level.

I also have a modern table, an Acoustic Signature WOW XXL. The table works fine, although there is no means to adjust the rotation speed. The arm on that table, the AS TA-2000, is a disaster. It is very difficult to use day in day out. There's a poor arm rest that makes moving the arm out of the rest an adventure (very tight), a finger lift incorporated on the cartridge mounting plate which can move because of the difficulty with the arm rest (goodbye alignment), very low effective mass, clunky arm lift that does not fit correctly into its mounting hole, It looks great. It maybe performs well but is a #$#%* to use. I've rewired it because the cable that came with it was unshielded for part of its length. I installed a 5 pin connector at the base. I will probably put it up for sale.

I have no respect for most current tables and arms. They're ridiculously overpriced, are not designed to function well but do look good, and do not work as well as some vintage tables and arms, such as the DD-40 and MA-505. All sizzle and no steak.

I'm not sure that Vintage Knob with all its great info and pretty pictures is a great authority on quality. There's plenty of equipment that's left out. I don't think it was designed as a review medium. Seems to me that Vintage Knob is there for one to look at the pretty products of the past. 

I measure frequency response with an A/D running at 48/96. I measure from 10 Hz to 50KHz using a software based Real Time Analyzer on my PC. The Koetsu with the SUT and Musical Surroundings Phenomena II used in MM mode.on the DD-40 with the MA-505L arm measures "flat" out to just past 20KHz. Response below 50Hz drops a bit, about 3-5 dB, I estimate.

It is difficult to measure the FR down to +/- 1dB. The signal change due to 1dB is about 10%, very difficult to hear. The noise in the system creates  readings that vary with time by a few dB, It is possible to average a large number of readings. I haven't done that yet. The FR curves provided by some cartridge manufacturers show very smooth response. Either they are averaging, filtering, or making it up.

Hum and noise is about 60dB below the reference signal. Without the tube amp, the other cartridges in my system are even further down, about 80 dB or so. These measurements show a very quiet system. In fact, I can only hear the hum and hiss when I am within 15 cm or so from the speaker driver (even with the tube phono pre).

Rumble will show up as an elevated low frequency response using an unmodulated groove. I've measured all four of my tables (DD-40s, WOW XXL, and a Denon DP-57L). The spectra are almost identical. This probably means that the sources for the rumble are not the tables, but something else in my system or room.

I've mentioned in another post in this thread that I've tested the arm bearings using the WallySkater, which uses the pendulum effect to detect bearing play and stickyness. The MA-505 and 505L measure better that my other modern arm, the Audiomods 6. Don't know about the TA-2000. It is buried somewhere in a box.

I've measured distortion at 1KHz with a test record and the RTA. For all cartridges it is about 1% (about 40 dB down from reference). Some cartridges measure a bit better, about 45 dB down. These similar measurements means that there's a fair amount of distortion on the test record itself.

In summary, I have directly measured all my table/arm configurations for FR, rumble, rotation smoothness, rotation accuracy, and tonearm stiction and looseness. All the tables perform well (even the WOW XXL with the Audiomods 6 arm).

I have measured my system for time and frequency response and distortion using REW. Note: the phono circuits are not used during this measurement.

Please suggest other measurements that might show me where my tables and arms are lacking in performance. I will have a go at measuring those.

@rauliruegas Thanks for showing me the Technics table. Very good example of good value. If I didn't already have four tables, I might seriously consider it.

I don't use the Denon as much as the DD-40, primarily because I don't like the look. The big blockiness of the arm pivot area is a turn off for me. But the specs on the table are very good, in fact great. Much better than the DD-40, I agree. One test I will do Is to use a different arm in a stand alone "pod". 

It is very difficult for me to audition other systems. There aren't any people around here with good systems and high end shops are non-existent. And I find it hard to make a thorough, honest evaluation in the store.

My only recent experience has been at a show. I didn't hear any system that was significantly better than mine, but shows are not the place for critical listening.

Could you explain you comment "MUSIC in a home system belongs to the bass range"?

I appreciate your comments. You've stimulated a bunch of thoughts.

I don't want to set up an argument between those who favor measurements and those who do not. Nobody wins that argument. I am troubled by the comments that say my system is not "high end" enough for the cartridges I have. It's not because I disagree but because I don't have a means to test that argument. I wish I could listen to a different system.

@rauliruegas  The Technics Sl-1200GR you post a link to has grabbed my interest. It does look like there's a lot of value for a very reasonable price. Thanks for the reference.

Will the Koetsu, the Shelter and the ZYX cartridges shine on this table?

@lewm  That is the slyest compliment I've ever heard. Gave me a chuckle. Thanks.

I do agree that the components with moving parts will affect the sound and sound a bit different as they age. I consider speakers, phono cartridges and the listening room to be the primary influence on sound. The tonearm and turntable are secondary, and all the others have a very small influence (as long as measured performance is in spec). Preamps and amps (except for tubed models) have little influence.

So my Denon DP-57L is a keeper?

It would be wonderful if there were more "guidelines" for matching equipment as it is difficult for me to separate good from bad advice.

Is the Technics SL-1200GR a good match to the Koetsu RS, the Shelter 901 and the ZYX Omega or 4D cartridges? What would be the entry level table for these cartridges?

I do use the resonance calculator. I always check before installing a cartridge. I have a number of headshells and weights, so I can tailor the mass to obtain resonant frequencies between 10 and 7 Hz. That is, if I know the arm's effective mass. I understand that this is not the only item that needs proper arm/cartridge matching.

I won't quibble about the arm/cartridge matching. I do think that the cartridge contributes much more than the arm does. I don't have any data, just a "feeling".

I don't use the DP-57L much because I don't like the arm's looks. A silly reason, but that's the one I've got. Perhaps I should mount the Koetsu or Shelter on it and listen. The adjustment of arm height is a bit of a pain.

@rauliruegas : Thanks for the discussion. I've learned a lot. I appreciate your patience with me. I am looking at the Technics SL-1200 G and GR. The prices are reasonable. Performance looks exemplary.

I come from a technical background - Optics, Electronics, Physics, so I take an analytical approach. Gotta have data to make a decision! I've learned here that I need to consider different, less technical means for evaluating my systems and components.

I will mount the Koetsu and the Shelter cartridges on the DP-57L, one at a time. And then give them a good listening evaluation.

I should figure out a way to quantify the table noise, especially wow and flutter. The wow and flutter test should be revealing.

@linnlp12 Thanks for the good words about the DD-40!

I measured all the tables I had a few months ago using an app that measures and reports RPM and WOW and Flutter. One can quibble about absolute accuracy, but comparisons among tables does indicate which tables have lower W&F.

The DD-40 came out # 3 of 4. The Technics SL-1200G and Denon DL-57L were the best. By a big margin, the worst table was my Acoustic Signature WOW XXL. Its W&F was about 5x worse than the Denon.and Technics (0.1% vs 0.02%) I've since sold this table.

And I really love the MA-505 arm. I have three and one long verrsion.