Your Side by Side Experience With Best Vintage vs Newer Expensive Hi Tech Speakers

Hi Vinny

I know there are some old schoolers around, but most of them have moved on from High End Audio since the push for "discrete" in the mid 90's. Most newer speakers (including drivers) are far less musical than the older speakers. You can evidence this by the folks walking around saying their speakers are so revealing they won't play "bad recordings". Well that's a bunch of road apples. High enders over the last couple of decades have been lied to about the state of affairs with recordings. High End Audio has been in decline since the mid 90's and most of the folks are in denial. You have a couple of reviewers right now who couldn't find their way out of playback session to save their lives. How do I know? They were once clients of mine begging for help. Pre-90's you had people making their recordings sound good on their systems, post 90's people aren't even being told that every recording is different. The concept of tuning in a recording is a lost science except for a few folks adjusting their TT's and Tape heads. The rest think plug & play, speaker placement and wishful thinking is what this hobby is about. This whole chapter of the hobby is one big mess, while the rest of the music lovers are getting into listening, and one by one realizing the High End Audio is nothing more than a revolving door sales club. Praising the new and damning last years models. Today's High End Audio is coming to a painful death, and the only ones who don't know it are the guys who still have a little money in their man cave account to burn. Hey, this isn't me talking, these are the words from the folks getting ahold of me to help them get back on track or to at least get somewhat tuned up. Most of the older folks who call me wish they could go back to one of their systems between the 70's-90's. They were sold the ladder climb only to find they were already there, they just needed to tune things in.

I'm a speaker designer as well, but ask me after all these years and all these new driver designs did I end up going back to simple woofers and paper tweeters? I use 1 cap in my speakers, and my speakers are as light as a feather. They have tuning bolts on them so your can adjust the vibrations, simple right? Their built like a guitar. These other older designers have their stories as well, and together the hobby was about music. Then the paradigm broke and it was all about money over the soundstage. Hobbyist were so compulsive they never even took the time to look at why sound was great back in the mid 80's. Spend this, buy that, upgrade. High end audio created a guilt driven fever that was completely based on false advertising. Let me just say this in closing on my long windedness. How did a hobby that was based on tuning in every recording because they knew every recording was different and unique end up with only a volume control? A volume control, that's your adjustment. In the past audiophiles knew what recordings were. High End Audio took things a completely different direction. Only thing is, the rest of the world made even more adjustments available while High End Audio forgot what the hobby even was.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi vinny55

I want to answer your question about tables but first I’d like to make a comment about the other fella’s post.

Kosst

It might be helpful if I introduce myself to you. My name is Michael Green. I work in the acoustical, mechanical and electrical field developing state of the art vibratory transfer and tuning components. Most of my work is in the music business, but I also meet and consult with some of the most up to date and modern technologies in other industries as well. Tonight for example I was meeting with engineers for the medical profession discussing tuning MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) machines. If you look at my resume and history you will see that I work in the areas where fundamentals and harmonics work together to provide the most efficient results.

In the audio world I keep pretty up to date, and have needed to for the last several decades. I’m not about High End Audio fluff my associates will tell you. I say this because many recordings are sent to me every year both old and new so I can tune them to specifically see if they are bad recordings or not, or bad sources or not. Fact is very few recordings are bad recordings or bad copies of recordings. Usually with some tuning every recorded code can be revealed. However if you don’t have a system that is variable you will only be able to play successfully a few recordings’ codes. It doesn’t matter if a speaker is 40 years old or built yesterday, the same methods and paradigms apply.

I’ll be happy to demo this for you.

Hi Vinny55, ok to your question.

If you look back in time, or better lived through it, you will find different eras where designers and engineers excelled over other times. This is important in our hobby because we are talking about music and there are always those guys who are music making gurus, and all of these gurus have their perfect moment. Most of these audio experts make their very best product and then are asked to make something that is more accommodating for particulars among their clients. It’s very common for the base model design to out perform that same designers flagship or sexy looking models. Huge compromises come with looks in audio, also price tags. Again around the mid 90’s you can see this come into play almost across the board. I knew many of these designers personally and would not put them on the spot or ruin their sales pitch, but if any smart camper looks at the product lines’ histories you can see this taking place.

The way to tell if a product has been over built or designed is to do what we have talked about here. If your a TT guy, go to your used record shop and pickup 20 different recordings, from different times. There’s no reason why all of those LPs (condition good of course) would sound anything but great on a flexible rig.

It all goes back to when designers lost the ability to design products that played harmonics as faithfully as fundamentals. Now a designer who has no idea what I just said, is not going to be able to play a wide range of recordings. Does that make the recording or copy bad? Of course not. It means that the playback system is limited. That system more than likely plays some recordings great and the rest poorly because there are no adjustments for him to make, or he doesn’t even know systems can be tuned. And if any audiophile doesn’t know they can tune a system, honestly they’re not very far along in the hobby (ending their learning curve too soon). I fault reviewers a lot for this malpractice in the hobby. I toured for 3 solid years for free tuning up systems and was on call for as many folks as I could get to. This is covered in the issues of Stereophile and TAS and all the others. People can go back and read all about it. It was called "the tuning revolution". It was the right time for the High End Audio to advance, but they chose the money route instead.

If this hobby would have continued in the method of tuning High End Audio would have a completely different look and function today. High End Audio would also have systems that played all music to a higher level of performance, instead of thousands of systems all playing something different and all claiming to be better than the other. There’s absolutely no way I would invest another dime in audio until I explored tuning. It’s just throwing good money away. Many of your fellow listeners have been tuning for years.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Ok Kosst, lets look at this through your glasses then.

"Flexibility? Most speakers these days are intended and quite content to not be driven by electronics with tone controls."

Really? Name one.

"Does anybody even build speakers with tone controls built into them?"

www.michaelgreenaudio.net It’s called a Tuning Bar.

"Flat response is a fairly narrowly defined idea these days."

Correct, because it is an inaccurate assumption. Speakers can not be made to be flat in playback without equalization. This has always been the case old or new.

"Having built an amp with only a DMM for test equipment, I’ve had no option but to listen very carefully and learn what distortion and it’s phase sounded like."

With all due respect, that was with one specific set of conditions. But it’s cool that you built an amp. I think building amps teaches us a lot about the amp/speaker/room interactions. However where exactly does the rose color glasses come into play here, if you don’t mind me asking?

What specific drivers and or speakers do you consider the most up to date? I have several of them sitting right here in my possession, maybe we can talk more specifically.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi phusis

"It seems that neither era will come to a fuller fruition, and hence an overall advance to truly speak of, unless the hallmarks of each are combined - that is, for physics to be accommodated while technology joins along."

BINGO!

This is why I am excited. It's also why I'm back promoting more again. The latest paradigm is here and has been here for some time. It's just that HEA is having a hard time turning the corner. Technology makes things simpler not more complicated. What we are seeing right now in real time is exactly what you described. There are a few learning curves to get through because HEA didn't know or didn't care to know, but that's all over. Every day now there are folks moving toward a simpler superior performance. But, it's so simple many are having a hard time making the jump, it's more of a drag them to the water.

Here's the good news though. There's no turning back. Folks can kick and scream all they want but the rate of people converting is picking up speed. I have people emailing me every day about converting their systems over. It's why I'm here speaking on this forum. 10 years ago HEA audiophiles were not ready to concede that the over built components and speakers failed to deliver the basic fundamentals of playback. Many, I'm sure, hate the idea that I'm even here. And that would all be the end of it, if not for the fact that hobbyist are turning away from the HEA paradigm in groves.

I'll say it again for folks to read "all recordings have a different recorded code and that requires a variable playback system to play all those codes". There is absolutely no way around this. We can buy as many systems as we want and play the Plug & Play game all we want, but in order to playback recordings in that fashion it would require hundreds of systems per listener. Some how this "one sound" system approach got into the main HEA brain, but this concept doesn't work. It's an never ending chase, and not one soul on this planet has ever achieved a one sound system that plays all recordings. I don't care who you are or how much money thrown or how much someone lies, recordings are codes, and they are all different codes. Not so much good and bad, but different. The component chase will never work, and has never worked. All these listeners are doing is listening to the same recordings with different outcomes. And no matter how many outcomes there are, it's still at best only going to serve a few recordings with any kind of accuracy.

There's a whole other chapter to this hobby and HEA is having a very tough time getting their heads around it.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi tomic

"maybe it exists but a seperate thread to discuss tuning might be in order..."

Yep, I’m thinking about it. "maybe it exists" doesn’t quite convince me to do it though. If folks don’t already understand how recordings are made to be tuned, having me come up and preach might stir up too many negative types. Maybe I should start a thread about the "recorded code" first and see how many understand how this works.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Tomic and Heard

Ok, when I get back into town I will start on how to get this rolling that makes the most sense and ruffles the fewest feathers.

I also want to make sure Agon is ok with me posting links to the TuneLand forum. There's tons and tons of this info over there.

One more thing, I'm obviously one of the older designers and manufacturers in this hobby still kicking, and I understand and respect salesman phobia, but with my schedule I don't have time to debate sidetracks. So if the Mods don't want me here talking about "The Method of Tuning" tell me now, cause I don't dig flames and internet trolls. I'm here to show a method of listening that has changed thousands of listeners experiences and does so every day.

One last thing, people who buy my stuff I love and appreciate, but I'm here to not sell products as much as I am the method. I already have thousands of Agon members who have my products, thank you BTW, but lets keep the products as separate from the method as we can so trolls don't monopolize the thread or threads. If this does happen I hope all understand if I go off to do my job. But if this is done correctly I think we'll have a good time.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Thanks Trelja! I love what I do!

This is a cool paragraph

"Audiophiles fool themselves believing tone controls no longer exist in this hobby. Consider the countless dollars and discussion threads spent on the hopes for and sonic effect of changing whatever (loudspeaker, power / pre amplifier, tube buffer, CD player, turntable, cartridge) component, resistor / capacitor, vacuum tube, cable, isolation device, tweak, etc. in the quest toward the ultimate destination"

Text book HEA audiophiles can be a weird bunch at times.

a pleasure meeting you

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Vinny

Today I was at our speaker shop, and we were having the new guys learn about tuning the speakers. Our speaker designs are free resonant and tunable. We have there in the shop identical speakers for the guys to do tapping tests on. Identical except for the mid dividing board that is. The one you can take a set of drumsticks and play it going up and down the scale in-tune. The other one you start to play it and you can hear that the pitch is off and out of tune. Same exact speakers with one board 7"x9" making the difference. Folks who visit are always shocked. I don’t build speakers like typical HEA speakers. Mine are made from instrument wood on the front baffle, .3" thick (yes only .3" thick, just over 1/4"). The rest (not including the base) is made from our own soft pulp compressed board 3/8" thick. On the FS (floorstanding) models there is a mass loading chamber on the bottom. And of course there is a Tuning Bar & Bolts so the user can change the tone.

My speakers are specifically designed to work like any acoustical instrument. What makes an acoustical instrument work? They are made to use the room as part of their components. Take any acoustical instrument and tune it in a room. Now take that instrument into another room. What do you notice? The instrument has gone out of tune slightly or major. Rooms and instruments work as one, so do speakers and rooms. You can put the best speaker in the world in a room and if it doesn’t tune to that room it will sound out of tone, timbre, pitch or phase. Audiophiles experience this all the time and can’t figure out what is wrong. I tell them "it’s not the speaker". I go through this every day somewhere in the world. Someone buys this raved about speaker and it sound horrible in their room. Or the other thing I get a lot is, someone moves and when they setup their new room it doesn’t sound as good as their old space.

This is why I’m thinking about starting some threads here about tuning. It will really help folks understand some things that maybe they haven’t done or even heard of before. And so yes, Vinny you are right on the money. It’s all about tuning.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

PS: here’s how fine tuned you can design a speaker. Do you guys know how many parts I have in my crossover? "1" it’s a ERO cap, and that’s it. Do you know why? Because I have done what Vinny says, I tune my drivers to my cabinet, and to whatever room they get used in.

Hi Eddy

I don’t think your long winded at all. I don’t know why some of these posts are so short lol.

In my studio, and up in the tunable studio I designed at SUNY, I use to give a demo to my classes that went like this. I would take one of the rooms and tune it up. The musician (we did this with a lot of different instruments) would then go into the room and tune his or her instrument in that room. In another room a few feet away I had it out of tune. I would have the musician then walk into the out of tune room and their instrument would go out of tune. I even did this in the bigger studio/hall. I would go through and tune up one half of the room, leaving the other half out of tune. Then I would have a student tap on his drum (tuned of course) they would walk from one side of the room to the other and you would hear the drum go out of pitch as soon as they got into the out of tune space and then back in tune when they walked and played back into the tuned area. This particular demo was pretty wild cause in this big room it was only a matter of maybe a foot from tuned to out of tune.

Here’s another cool one.

When I was doing some work with Slum Village in the Sound Lounge, folks would come by and we would do some interviews. One day Bubby Webb and a few others did a cool demo, I think it was for VH1. They had Mel (great singer) sing on the regular floor just off the main stage area. While she was singing she stood up on one of my vocal platforms, and you could hear her voice instantly jump into her chest. She would get on and off that platform while singing. Needless to say the TV guy freaked out. He called it a trick, then we had him do the same thing.

What type of guitars do you have?

yep the Tunable Speakers are pretty cool

I did a show in Frankfurt years ago. Dave’s speakers were in the room next to me, it was when I first came out with the Chameleon. About half way through the show I decided to do something interesting. I got the same recording Wilson was playing, and I told a bunch of guys I could tune my speaker to sound like the Wilson’s. Of course that got folks going. So I went over and listened in their room for a while, and then came over to my room and tuned them up as close as I could. I sold 15 pair that day. It was so fun that I did the same thing in Denmark. Only this time had B&W in the room next to me. B&W didn’t like it I don’t think. The Wilson gang is always cool. Dave’s got style.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Vinny sorry if I’m getting off topic a little.

Eddy, you asked

"I’m also curious about your drivers being tuned to the cabinet, AND the room. So, if a potential customer were to purchase your speakers, how do you determine the correct tuning methodology for that individuals room?"

mg

Well, it depends how deep into tuning that guy or gal wants to go. Some folks get some of my stuff and use it to tune with, and some will even go as far as have me build or design a Tunable Room for them. I’m doing two rooms right now. My method comes with all the tools a person needs to make their sound how ever they want (within reason). There are some incredibly different ears out there. I have a forum where I help them get to that place. For some it’s pretty easy and for others it’s tough going, until they get the hang of things. I also do a lot of systems where the listener has their favorite components and I try to help them get the system to work well together. It takes a lot of getting to know the person cause it’s not my sound we’re going after it’s theirs. There are reviews about this when I use to go around and do the reviewers. One cool one you can look up is one I did with Bob Hodas for Widescreen review. That was kind of fun because he was tuning with his computer and I was there with my toys.

If you go to my website you will see a lot more obviously. There are a lot of variables in recording and through the playback stage as you know. What I’ve tried to do is make a tunable product (products) that gives the listener enough flexibility as it takes, if not I will design something custom for them. It’s a cool gig. Deciding what is correct is a big question in this hobby because the typical system setup only plays about 10% of the recorded code. That leaves a lot of recording to open up. One of the first things folks will mention as they start tuning is how big the soundstage gets. I mean we’re talking in some cases of the stage tripling over night. Once I get that stage open I start working with the listener to help them focus things in to a comfortable place for them. Then after they’ve been tuning for a while I show them how to make adjustments from recording to recording. It’s really up to how far they want to go, and how much adjusting they want to do.

I ask about the guitars cause I love to visit with luthiers. I spend a lot of time with instrument builders.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net