I didn’t think I would get such high quality responses here in a row! Starting with low expectations worked out well 😆 I’ve been very satisfied with the sound I’ve been getting from my Rythmik F12G in the med-large room my system is set up within, so I’ve kept putting other upgrades above getting a second one of them. But it’s helpful to get this feedback.
Thankfully, I’ve never had any difficulty integrating subs by ear using manual phase and crossover adjustments. I do have an SVS SB2000 in a different system, so I think I’ll play with trying to integrate it into my main system temporarily, just to see if I can get a general sense of this wild world of sub-bass "smoothness". I have an extra set of longer subwoofer signal cables to make it work, too.
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I’m also now thinking that since my Rythmik is the one with the paper cone (vs aluminum) for faster response, and there must be more distortion involved because of the relative flimsiness of paper, that two subs working less hard would help increase clarity. Honestly, hard to imagine more sub-bass clarity than what I have now, but I’m sure it’s possible.
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What sounds good to me is what's optimal in my system.
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@erik_squires Ah, I see what you mean. I never went that way because I was doubtful of the purity of an active crossover's output and its circuitry. It would be interesting to try though. Does anyone use passive line level high-pass filters for sub integration, and achieve an excellent level of transparency through it?
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@soix I can feel it in my balls that loudspeaker woofer distortion is minimized by passing low frequencies to a subwoofer. That's how I know it's true. Would you like to see the napkin that I've deposited the evidence on?
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My ICs from pre to amp are balanced XLR.
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@ditusa Looks like I need to get busy reading to understand my options better. Appreciated! I'm also looking at some FAQs on Rythmik's website about integrating a sub and why they normally advise against using the optional speaker level inputs.
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Never heard of the term group delay before, but maybe that’s it. The Rythmik sub uses a direct servo motor system to control transient response precision. The SVS in comparison sounds like the cone is slower to change direction. If it’s phase alignment that’s being referred to, I can confidently assert that it’s unrelated to my comments. Both the Rythmik and SVS have manual phase adjustments.
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The Rythmik Audio website's FAQ section that I've been re-reading since I bought my F12G sub seems excellent to me. One fine example:
( @soix )
"Cone excursion goes up 4x for every octave lower in frequency. So 40hz needs 4x more excursion than at 80hz. And large cone excursion increases distortion and in particular "intermodulation distortion" (higher frequency (small excursion) signal is modulated by low frequency (large excursion)). The correct way to address this is put a high pass filter (HPF) on front speakers in order to reduce the cone excursion. This issue is particularly bad for ported front speakers as you may notice with full range signal, woofer in ported speakers have far more excursion than that in sealed front speakers. With the cone excursion reduced, the distortion from the front speakers is also reduced and the sound becomes more dynamic and coherent."
Rythmik FAQ about Subwoofers
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@james633 I totally believe your anecdote. I also think I have a fortuitously sized and featured listening room for low frequencies. My experience has been far easier than the average report about using single subs that I've read. Nonetheless, I'm getting more and more interested in dual subs as this discussion progresses.
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@soix Haven’t tried yet, but the Rythmik F12G is so much faster than the SVS SB2000 that it’s really in a different class. Is a different type of technology altogether.
My plan for when I try putting them into play together is to use a copper power cable on the F12G that I know sounds slower and more smeary and an 11awg 7N OCC silver power cable (which I normally use on the F12G) on the SB2000 to attempt to split the difference in apparent rapidity of response. Not sure if the SB2000 will get anywhere close in speed because of the silver, but my testing in the past showed that it was very responsive to changes in power cables. Much more so than the F12G.
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@james633 Sounds like why I chose to give up on the parametric EQ section of the amp on my Rythmik sub, soon after buying it. Sounds significantly better and faster to me without applying a specific FR curve.
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@ditusa The article written by Doug Blackburn exudes confidence and it sounds plausible, but I disagree with a good portion of his assertions due to my experience. "Listen to a subwoofer all by itself for a while. You won’t hear anything vaguely resembling speed coming from that slow, soggy-sounding, plodding subwoofer. It has no detail and no speed whatsoever when heard all by itself."
I’ve done this with different subwoofers and they sound different. The SVS SB2000’s perceived quality of rapidity vs slowness changed significantly when changing its power cable with those of different materials and constructions. I started a discussion thread here about it some time ago.
The way I see it, the audio hobby is really about listening. Some people can detect differences just by listening, so they don’t rely on concepts so much, just like some people who can see clearly at very far distances don’t need corrective lenses. Some people don’t have the ear/brain training/gift/whatever to perceive as acutely, so they rely more on measurementation and abstraction. This is the primary basis for my system building, and the reason I disagree with the author.
I’ll give the other article a read today. I think it’s more up my alley.
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Thanks to everyone for their input! I have yet to play with my Rythmik and SVS together, but I'll report back when I do, since at least one person was interested in hearing about it.
I think it's unlikely I'll stick with a single sub forever. Conceptually, two just makes more sense, just based on the info provided in this discussion. 👍🏼
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Update with a few notes on my short journey here:
(@soix, tagging u since u asked about my findings)
1) Reconfirmed more thoroughly my claim about aural locatability of my Rythmik F12G sub. Anyone can believe me or not, but when it’s only the sub playing music with a very low crossover setting, I can instantly locate where the sound is coming from in the room while facing any direction and standing almost anywhere in the listening room... except when I’m behind the vertical plane made by the sub’s cone. Then it’s a diff story and it’s not locatable. My ears have to be in front of the driver somewhere.
2) I had placed the single sub in the middle of my speakers because I needed the SPL from that single, relatively low output Rythmik, which is focused on speed, not loudness. So that position was necessary (you could say optimal... or not) because I really needed two of these subs to begin with in a room of this size, but only had one. AND, the extra low crossover point sounded the best in that position because of the directional effects I’m hearing with this single Rythmik sub, and how having it pointing right at the listening position affected the sound in the 40+ hz bass range.
3) Having the two subs in play (Rythmik F12G and SVS SB2000) far apart from each other totally alleviated both the directionality/locatability problem, and the issue with needing to use an unusually low crossover point.
4) The Rythmik is a totally different animal. I listened to both of them with speakers off while doing test tones for phase adjustment and with music. There’s actually music and details coming through the Rythmik, both in the lowest frequencies, and up through top of the audible range as it diminishes through the end of the crossover slope. The SVS is just blub, blub, blub, blub, and you really can’t make out musical details anywhere in its output. In comparison, it’s a bunch of noise and sounds really distorted. The Rythmik has so much more purity in its sound. I wasn’t able to get the SVS to blend in with my speakers, blubbing along like that. The Rythmik just disappears.
5) I bought another Rythmik. :)
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@soix I’ll let ya know.
@12many Yes, bass is mixed using L and R just like anything else. But the higher frequencies certainly give much more soundstage positioning cues. Often, the low bass sounds are set evenly between L and R, which is the same as center. Like, for electronic music’s synth bass lines. But recorded upright bass, or a large tympani could be set in the mix more to one side.
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