Sorry typo's above
Tons.... I have heard 800 dollar speakers that easily competed with 5000 plus (so called better designs) after being replaced with Alpha core Ribbon inductors, Mills Resistors, and Mundorf caps, Solen caps(cheap but very effective), and several other types of caps. 90% of the speaker is the Crossover, 7% is the cabinet, and about 3% is the driver selection... I have seen this ratio before from most manufactures and agree with it, now that is not to say a solid correctly designed cabinet is not of upmost importance but its easier, and cheaper to get then the crossovers sometimes. Some 20 dollar drivers with 500.00 dollar crossovers can sound better than 300.00 drivers with the most widely used 15.00 dollar crossovers.
As for what it did, well the speakers sounded more efficient flowing much more free, effortless so to speak.. bass normally hightens and tightens. Highs become further more airy. It will depend on how complex the crossover is too, some that use 14 parts are very complex in the first place and will have issues and be VERY expensive to build, but the more 1st order systems, that use 4 to like 8 parts only become very transparent and effective, still expensive but much easier to handle. |
Tons.... I have heard 800 dollar speakers that easily competed with 5000 plus (so called better designs) after being replaced with Alpha core Ribbon inductors, Mills Resistors, and Mundorf caps, Solen caps(cheap but very effective), and several other types of caps. 90% of the speaker is the Crossover, 7% is the cabinet, and about 3% is the driver selection... I have seen this ratio before from most manufactures and agree with it, now that is not to say a solid correctly designed cabinet is not of upmost importance but its easier, and cheaper to get then the crossovers sometimes. Drivers of high quality can do many things is crossed over correctly, some 20 dollar drivers with 500.00 dollar crossovers can sound better than 300.00 drivers with the most widely used 15.00 dollar crossovers.
As for what it did, well the speakers sounded more efficient flowing much more free, effortless so to speak.. bass normally hightens and tightens. Highs become further more airy. It will depend on how complex the crossover is too, some that use 14 parts are very compled in the first place and will have issues and be VERY expensive to build, but the more 1st order systems, that use 4 to like 8 parts only become very transparent and effective, still expensive but much easier to handle. |
Huh? Baffled is right....No its not agreed in a friendly sense.. 90% of Standard Speaker DESIGN is crossover is all the point was. And exactly why speakers with NO crossover to worry about are even another step forward. That was not the question and I chose to not confuse the matter or put my own results of eliminating them all together in the original question, eliminate a crossover all together is infact another World as you put it. Do the crossover as well as possible is the best bet, Electronic or no Crossovers is even better, but for the conventional audiophile designs litered with extra parts, Yep go for the better parts and they sound better. Sorry I was not allowed to speak on the matter even though I no longer own crossovers, and this is the exact reason why after experiencing step by step thru many speakers.. But the many I did own and upgraded had very credible increases in sound when using the better parts.. I fail to see where my comments above were to offend or confuse anyone due to my own ownership, but I have to disagree that means I have no way to give info on past endenvors for the best.
By the way the crossover parts I mentioned in most designs will quite litterally require 5 to 10 times the amount of space over the basic 3" X 6" computer grade crossover boards used in many brands. Actually most will require outboard cabinets as big as 12" x 12" for exotic Caps and inductors, not to mention they will weigh in the 15 to 20 lb range vs. the 2 or 3 lbs of the original passive units normally replaced.
D_edwards, keep in mind I was speaking to the majority of audio speaker guys and not trying to push a product I happen to own on to them, simple as that. Thanks for the concern though :) |
Sbrtoy, I agree, low pass can definatley work well and even better with standard 1 dollar to 15 dollar caps eg. Solen, Auricap etc...
My statements were made to be VERY general, as to simply say yes better parts can produce far better results, and then I used some simple examples just to give what flavors can change, that is all..
But none of this stuff is provable until the hardcore audiophile trys it, and believe me there are much worse mistakes and costs that audiophiles make then maybe taking a 5000.00 pair of speakers and having the guts to get in there and throw in some equal value higher quality parts. And Nobody said 97% is the crossover, Actually I said 90% of the Final sound in the product will be based on how well the crossover is designed, implemented, Executed, and has definate lean against the quality of parts.
It was not so spelled out maybe, but that is what I meant if this is what you are refering too. So sorry to mislead. |
Vman71, Klipsch are what I did many of my trials on as well.. They did respond incredibly no doubt. Maybe some of these guys just simply have less results due to lower sensitivity speakers.. I mean many speakers are very overdamped sounding, for example my Dynaudios were less responsive to complete crossovers at first but it was more than subtle so I heard far lower noise etc.. Still. I had JM labs which were one of the best I ever heard after having outboards, near cost no object built as well, The sharper speakers such as the Jm labs with metal tweets, and the Klipsch with the compression drivers were much more apparent in the upgrades so maybe that is why its hard to prove.
But then again I think more of the argument is here from the DIY guys building From scratch and putting their stock into the design factor more than the parts cost, I have not had as good of results building from scratch myself, but have had huge increase in fidelity using hi quality crossovers in already proven designs that skimped on the best caps, inductors etc... |
definatley the more complex with higher slope designs, the more expensive and lesser sound to be had per dollar. |
Sean, I see what you are saying. I agree, also just to clarify I was simply trying to keep it more 'well more simple I guess. I was also more or less just stating that the simpler design in the crossover might have the quicker and more apparent results being able to afford and replace 5 or 6 parts that would be the total crossover, vs. hitting or missing on pulling only a couple Caps in a 14 part - 20 part crossover and hoping for absolute results. But to be honest most of the stuff I ever did was I believe 1st order replacements, but I think my Jm labs from memory were a good 10 or 12 part and were like a 12 or 18 db slope, so second or third order, and I still replaced all the parts with excellent results, but could not comment on just putting in a new hi pass cap or something alone, which yes might have had just as much effect, but I figured money to burn and if I had to tear it apart just spend the extra and do it in one shot. Its all simply putting your money where your mouth is in the end and hearing it especially if you are very familure with your speakers sound you will notice a difference for good or bad, that statement is not directed to anyone specific just a general thought that I follow now cause internet chat boards will not tell the story till you experience it. |
Jade, truth is that is a lot of parts like you said, and might take longer to settle in and then bigger changes will occur. When I did my last pair they sounded more efficient having to use less power to drive at first but sounded a little restricted in terms of they just were not loose yet, but this took about 2 months and then they really opened up and sounded like 5 ft deeper soundstage etc.. So see how it goes, I mostly have heard big changes in 2 way designs, I believe you have a 3 way and thats why you have an abundance of parts vs. a 2 way 1st order network. |
I found that it works well.. But can't say direct comparison wise, because fact is the only reason I have had to move them out of the cabinet was physically if your gonna use the Best parts available they are literaly 5 times the size of a cheap computer grade board and parts in most of these designs... For example, I did a pair for a friend, they had about 5" X 3.5" x 1.5" boards that maybe weighed 1 lb or so.. Well the EXACT same values of caps, Inductors, Resistors etc.. Of the highest quality we could get our hands on took up a minimum board of 12"(1 ft) X 9", and had to take up about 5" Height on top of it.. So we had to move them to a dedicated cabinet that with those parts weighed about 12 lbs... They were decent sized Cubes for sure.
Even if you have the space to fit such a huge difference in size you could probably knock the speaker out of Volume specs for the drivers if they share a chamber with it. Just a point to make, but I keep it safe if your gonna do an actual upgrade then build them outside for ease of everything, and yes maybe vibration control will be an added benefit, but just pulling them out for fun, I don't know, I would probably not mess with it. |
