Mr. Tennis,
If you and I, together, attended a concert where the sound was clearly off, we would most likely be in agreement. It wouldn't be a case of where I thought it was great and you were looking at me in bewilderment as if I was tone deaf.
In my experience, 99% of the time when I heard a sonic improvement, the client heard it as well. Sadly, clients don't trust their own ears enough and I wish they would. I am not keen on selling people individual components based on a review that the client read somewhere. A systems approach is what we both preach and practice.
You and I (and others in this thread) ALL AGREE that only the client knows what sounds most pleasing to him or her -and this sound can change over the course of one's life, too.
There isn't a perfect speaker that suits all. Everyone has a favorite flavor of sound. If they know which flavor and can communicate it to me then great - I will know exactly how to advise them.
If they can't describe what they are looking for then I start from ground zero - asking them what speakers they have owned - what they recently heard and liked and by playing for them 3 different sounding systems (warm, neutral, bright) to determine their preference and then fine tune from there. When I sit down with clients to design a system around their lifestyle - I design it with them in mind - not me.
I do not have to sell what I have in inventory - this is old school thinking. When you deal with the very best in hifi - special orders are a must. I cannot stock every custom finish that Verity offers for every model in their line-up. I stock one finish and if the customer likes what they hear from my demo pair then I special order a pair in their preferred finish. I never understood why some dealers went to the trouble to open a speaker, dial it in, break it in, and then just sell it at a discount to then have to unbox another and start the process over. We keep our demos on hand and view that inventory as the cost of doing business.
Please understand that from my point of view, based on years of experience, there is no hard sell to high-end AV. A-B-C doesn't apply (always be closing). The equipment sells itself. I make a recommendation and demo a system or I bring an individual item over to the client's home - we listen to a few tracks prior to installing the new item and both the client and I know if we have a winner. It doesn't matter how much or how little the component retails for - I was making house calls with $500 dacs and USB to S/PDIF converters.
Finally, many of my clients are close friends and they are welcome to spend many, many hours chit-chatting about hifi with me but we do it outide of the shop - as friends should. We talk during hikes, over a game of chess, fishing on the lakes or rivers of Washington, during long lunches, or weekend dinners, etc.
I own the company so I am, in essence, a commissioned salesperson, right? However, I do not see the dealer to client relationship as one vs. the other. |
Mr. Tennis,
Hmmm...it depends on the complexity and level of integration that the system entails. But let's examine just the high-end market for a moment.
That would seem logical but what you end up with is consumer direct Audio Note, B&O, Naim, Linn, McIntosh or Meridian (good luck setting up a Meridian system PROPERLY without a dealer!). That's it.
And there'd be nothing wrong with that..FOR SOME; however, it is unlikely that the best digital minds will also manufacture the best analog equipment. You are daring to imagine a world without J. Gordon Rankin, George Cardas, Richard Vandersteen, Carl Marchisotto, or AJ Conti to name but a very, very few.
CES wouldn't need to be held in Vegas - it could be held at a local country club or ski resort. You wouldn't really need the audio press or online reviewers to keep covering those same all brand systems.
Hey, look at it another way - remove every manufacturer that only specializes in doing one thing (type of component or device) very well. There goes Berkeley, DCS, Sonos, Wilson, Rockport, Hansen, Verity, Magnepan, Aerial, REL, JL Audio, Kharma, Marten, Basis, B&W, Wadia, Cardas, Silverline, Nola, Harbeth, Hansen, Avalon, Ascendo, Daedalus, Audyssey, Devore, YGA, Pure Music, J. River, Amarra, Dynaudio, Focal, Scanspeak, Eton...well, I think you get the point.
Now remove electronics manufacturers that don't manufacture loudspeakers - Ayre, Bel Canto, Mark Levinson, Classe, Rotel, Nagra, Audio Research, Jeff Rowland, Simaudio, Cary, and this list goes on as well.
Plus, most manufacturers that I know well would prefer not to sell one unit at a time/consumer direct, pay to advertise in all markets, spend their days, evenings, and weekends on the phone troubleshooting or providing technical support, explaining computer settings for products that they do not sell but that their customers will need to use in order to obtain the maximum benefit from their product. It's funny to think that all we do is sit around and sell boxes and run back and forth between the bank and the shop.
How many of these consumer direct companies will send people out to look at your room and get a feel for your lifestyle and manner in which the system could best serve that lifestyle?
I do not know of any equipment manufacturer that can design and install a fully functioning, distributed A/V system on a multi-deck 100+ foot yacht? (Bob Stuart perhaps?) But I realize that some may see that as an extreme (any coastal high-end dealer would not) - how about something simple and common in almost every household...how many manufacturers of high-end can test, analyze, and solve HDMI issues? Probably a few.
As a dealer, I've invested $9,000 just in professional test equipment for troubleshooting HDMI problems. Consumers have learned the word "handshake" which is but a catch all phrase. Which specific handshake issue is actually causing the problem, why is it happening, and how do you solve it without swapping out different brands of equipment in the hopes of getting lucky?
I'd also like to say that I have yet to see an all-one-brand system take any best of show sound. WHY IS THAT?
Finally, some manufacturers have abandoned a dealer base and have gone the route of direct sales. For example, Bel Canto tried it and moved quickly back to a dealer base. Velodyne did it, too, not long ago and, well, they've all but dropped off the radar.
There is no doubt in my mind, even if I were not a dealer, that a dealer can service a consumer far better than a single manufacturer. I've said it above, earlier in this thread, not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but some are very passionate about what they do and those types of dealers are usually experts at what they do.
Suffice to say, the guys at Verity Audio manufacture a wonderful product but I wouldn't want Julien Pelchat (No offense Julien) wiring my home or designing the audio and VIDEO system on my client's boat. Hey, does anybody know if Dave Wilson can program Crestron? :)
Imagine if a powerhouse like Harman sold it's products factory direct - and if they rebadged everything under one brand. What you'd be buying would be Revel or JBL loudspeakers powered by Mark Levinson, Crown, and Lexicon amplifiers, and you'd have an HDMI version 1.2 Lexicon processor (with room correction), and a re-badged oppo for a blu-ray player. I guess you have to remove the Oppo since they have to make everything themselves - so you wouldn't have a source for DVD or Blu-Ray. Yikes! Sorry kids, we can't watch Barney the dinosaur. Sorry parents, you can't catch your breath while the kids are in front of the TV. Does Naim or Audio Note manufacture a Blu-Ray player?
And by the way, 99% of the high-end electronics companies do NOT manufacture video displays.
So, you've got hundreds of brands of electronics, displays, control systems, wire companies, and speakers. And one manufacturer is going to is going to be more knowledgable than a dealer?
Sorry - No way.
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Sure, not all dealers are created equal and we shouldn't generalize. But I'd like to believe that most people, dealers included, are inherently good. We all just want to put in our time, earn a fair wage, and spend our time outside of work doing things we love with the people we love.
With that said, dealers are often unfairly held responsible for poor results because many customers take a component approach rather than a systems approach. By systems approach I mean every single part of the system - as it all matters and effects the end result - including the room, power, cabling, etc.
This is really what I feel, as a dealer, is the crux of the problem. You are not likely, on your own, as a consumer, to piece together a reference class "best of show" system. Can it be done? Sure. Is it likely? Probably not.
And then there's the Internet. Most customers believe that if they read it on the Internet then it must be true which we, as dealers, know is certainly not the case. Some of the most favorably reviewed equipment on the net I would not even GIVE to my friends or family members. Do I offer or recommend those products? Absolutely not.
10 years ago people sought advice and trusted their own ears but now consumers are buying hifi as they purchase artwork. Checking to make sure that their own feelings are validated by some online authority (a blogger who more often than not is a hobbiest that can string together a few coherent sentences).
Moreover, I take issue with individual component reviews vs. system reviews. Brand X preamp may we highly touted and reference caliber but only when placed within certain systems.
Anyway, I strive to help every one of our customers reach their goals, regardless of how much they spend or how much time they require. I don't succeed if my customers don't succeed and there is no business without our customers.
I'm in the business (and have been for 23 years) because I am passionate about high fidelity and I believe that higher fidelity adds to the human experience and to one's quality of life.
Burt, Proprietor
Seattle Hi-Fi
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I'm not adding to this thread to blow my own horn. Hardly - I keep a very low profile. But I was compelled to offer my insight as a dealer after reading about the poor dealership experiences by other audiogon members.
Margins have diminished over the years and trust me when I tell you that no dealer is getting rich in this economy.
As I see it, hifi dealers exist to serve the needs of their clients and the local music scene / music community. |
I have no interest in getting into an argument - we can define "reference quality" however you would like (for example - truest to live event, ability to get up and walk around the band members in the re-created soundstage) but that goal, in my opinion, is difficult to do without the assistance of a professional with years of training and a library of experiences to call upon. Of this, you will not change my mind.
And, I believe there is great hifi at all price points. Big dollar items don't necessarily translate into better fidelity.
I disagree, wholeheartedly, that a dealer is limited to the product he carries or will only make recommendations based solely on the products that he or she sells. We routinely custom order products that may not be in high demand for the sake of meeting a particular customer's needs. With 20+ years in the business and friends at almost all manufacturing companies - a piece is usually just a phone call away.
Plus, in my own experience, I have spent, on average, probably no less than 1 full day a week (4 days per month) for the past 22+ years in actual "classroom" training - CEDIA, PARA, Meridian, Lucasfilms, Dolby Labs, ISF, Denon, Marantz, Rotel, B&W, Verity, Nagra, Harman, Audyssey, room acoustics, advanced theater design, and on and on.
Plus, as I've walked into customer homes, boats, and planes over that time, the customer's systems have been comprised of all different types of electronics and speakers and dealers learn fairly quickly what pairs best to create that sought after synergy.
I've had experience with products from companies that I have never sold but still understand how to achieve great results with those products. And, I have experience with products that are no longer available which I can recommend that a customer be on the lookout for should one show up on audiogon or ebay. Our goal never changes - it is always customer focused.
How many consumers have that type of training or knowledge base?
Finally, for the most part, our customers are not electronics hobbyists and are not prone to flipping - the hobbyist is different than someone who hires a professional to recommend or assemble a system based on the client's musical tastes (whatever flavor they choose) for the enjoyment of music. There is always a goal in mind with a finite ending. Sure, new technologies may warrant a future upgrade or component replacement but for the most part the system stays relatively intact - which, by the way, also allows clients to discern when a new component or cable is actually increasing or decreasing the fidelity.
We're music lovers first and foremost and that is why we spend the time and money on better electronics. We prefer that our clients stay focused on the music and not the equipment. The equipment is only a conduit to the music. Once the system is in place we direct them to spend their money on music and media.
How passionate are we about our customers? We operate by appt. only on a one-to-one basis 24/7 - 365.
Respectfully,
Burt
Seattle Hi-Fi |
Plus, I would also like to say that of all of the loudpeaker, electronics, and wire manufacturers who I have visited over the past 22+ years, most only had 2 or three brands of other people's stuff in their sound/test rooms. They do not have the ability (time, expense, access) to test even 10% of the current models nor have access to everything produced prior.
Finally, not many, consumers realize that even the best companies utilize consultants, metal fabricators, parts suppliers, pay licensing royalties, share patents, buy other's parts, etc. The product that sits on your shelf with but one brand name or the loudspeaker that sits beside it are a combination of many companies efforts and minds.
Sure, a loudspeaker manufacturer can make several recommendations of amplifiers that will yield positive results with their product but they have likely not experienced the number of pairings that but one of their dealers will experience over the course of a single year.
I realize that you mentioned "audio only" dealers but there are already almost none of those remaining. But you also mentioned the term "large" dealerships and such dealerships, to the best of my knowledge, are not audio only. |
Whart -
I guess it depends on the product but a reputable dealer, who is not going to discount or throw something up for sale on the Internet (selling out of territory), should be able to secure a product or put the customer in touch with a reputable dealer. Serving the client must always be the focus.
Years ago we had P.A.R.A. (Professional Audio Retailers Association). It allowed professional dealers to meet one another in a friendly atmosphere to work together to strategize on numerous topics, solve system problems and, ultimately, to form lasting friendships. I had no problem referring clients to a friend in the business if they had a product my client required to achieve optimum results. It was a win-win-win: Client's needs were met, Customer was pleased with my guidance, and that dealer would reciprocate if one of his clients needed something that I had.
A great system will stand the test of time, provide years of enjoyment, and could then be passed on to one's children. Case in point is a piece such as the Nagra 300i - built from the ground up around the 300 tube. It's won numerous design, engineering, and best of show awards and maybe 20 have been manufactured and circulated worldwide. In fact, we have 1 of only 3 that ever made it into the USA.
Nagra is a great example for another reason - I choose my lines based on my ear and experience - not by magazine reviews or manufacturer advertising budget. I think we are one of only 3 Penaudio dealers but in the months to come everyone will become more familiar with Penaudio. Same was true for Berkeley before all of the reviews had hit...and Modwright who we've been with since day 1.
Chances are that the next great thing in audio will come from a smaller independent company such as a Berkeley...or a Wavelength (who gave the world Asychronous technology?)...or a Modwright. I spend thousands of dollars every year to walk CES and find those breakout products long before the audio press is able to publish reviews. This is another service that dealers provide - to let customers know what is coming so that they can advise them properly. I've saved customers hundreds of thousands of dollars by preventing them from buying technology that was soon to be obsolete.
I can keep going on and on about the services a professional dealer can provide but it sounds like you have a good understanding. As I mentioned in my original comment - not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but customer oriented dealerships, such as mine, do exist.
Burt - Seattle Hi-Fi |
Whart -
I guess it depends on the product but a reputable dealer, who is not going to discount or throw something up for sale on the Internet (selling out of territory), should be able to secure a product or put the customer in touch with a reputable dealer. Serving the client must always be the focus.
Years ago we had P.A.R.A. (Professional Audio Retailers Association). It allowed professional dealers to meet one another in a friendly atmosphere to work together to strategize on numerous topics, solve system problems and, ultimately, to form lasting friendships. I had no problem referring clients to a friend in the business if they had a product my client required to achieve optimum results. It was a win-win-win: Client's needs were met, Customer was pleased with my guidance, and that dealer would reciprocate if one of his clients needed something that I had.
A great system will stand the test of time, provide years of enjoyment, and could then be passed on to one's children. Case in point is a piece such as the Nagra 300i - built from the ground up around the 300 tube. It's won numerous design, engineering, and best of show awards and maybe 20 have been manufactured and circulated worldwide. In fact, we have 1 of only 3 that ever made it into the USA.
Nagra is a great example for another reason - I choose my lines based on my ear and experience - not by magazine reviews or manufacturer advertising budget. I think we are one of only 3 Penaudio dealers but in the months to come everyone will become more familiar with Penaudio. Same was true for Berkeley before all of the reviews had hit...and Modwright who we've been with since day 1.
Chances are that the next great thing in audio will come from a smaller independent company such as a Berkeley...or a Wavelength (who gave the world Asychronous technology?)...or a Modwright. I spend thousands of dollars every year to walk CES and find those breakout products long before the audio press is able to publish reviews. This is another service that dealers provide - to let customers know what is coming so that they can advise them properly. I've saved customers hundreds of thousands of dollars by preventing them from buying technology that was soon to be obsolete.
I can keep going on and on about the services a professional dealer can provide but it sounds like you have a good understanding. As I mentioned in my original comment - not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but customer oriented dealerships, such as mine, do exist.
Burt - Seattle Hi-Fi |
Mr. Tennis:
I'm quite fond of ARC though I do not represent the line. ARC is not available to me in this market. But it's great stuff as is Nagra which I do represent.
If you had called me and said, "hey Burt, I've got this ARC amplifier that I absolutely love - what should I mate it to as far as a preamplifier?" You would have heard me respond, "ARC."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking to a single brand of electronics in order to achieve great results if you are happy with the sound.
Best,
Burt
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I mistakenly said Mr. Tennis but I meant to address my last few comments to Bifwynne.
The only thing I can say to Mr. Tennis is that you are severely limiting yourself and the potential of your system if you rely solely on manufacturers that allow consumer direct in-home auditions. It is more than just opinion that you'd be missing out on the majority of the best in hifi. |
Bifwynne,
We can shoot the breeze anytime!
Also, I just want to clarify that the reason I prefer to chit-chat outside of the shop with client friends is because it's a different dynamic - more relaxed and casual. In fact, I took one of my friends (who happens to be a client) to a Mariners game less than two weeks ago. The following week, that same client and I, shared a lunch at an Italian restaurant. It's understandable that clients will have questions because they want to understand the why's and why not's of system matching or system building and just need to talk some things through or bounce ideas off of someone who may have already gone down a path that they are considering.
It's no trouble on my part to act as a sounding board. They understand that my opinion and my experience is but one perspective and they are always encouraged to read up on various subjects if they still seek a further understanding.
I can't speak to what others do but we operate by appt. only in a one-to-one setting so there is never an issue of one client taking priority over another....ever. When you hear me talk about a "big fish" it is always with regard to a Chinook or Coho Salmon. :)
So....don't be a stranger, stranger!
Best,
Burt
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Mr. Tennis,
You asked, "do you think you can configure a stereo system that i prefer, as opposed to a stereo system that i configured for myself?"
Yes, of course. Without a doubt - but I can only do so if you explain what it is that you are looking for. Dealers can not read a client's mind.
You need to communicate with your dealer as you do when you contact a manufacturer or take part in Internet blogs/threads.
An analogy could be made between a hifi dealer and interior designer - the client has their own taste or style but a great designer can incorporate that style to design a room (or system) far beyond that which the homeowner could have on their own.
Yes, I admit it - I watch HGTV with the MRS.
And as with designers, that experience or skill carries an associated cost. Personally, I look at it as money well spent. I do not wish to get something for nothing.
So, rather than playing "hit or miss" via mail order - you should put a knowledgable dealer to work for you. Let them expend their energy - make recommendations - bring over hifi (while you supply the beer and pizza). Make it fun - have a good time - share music with one another.
And, if they do right by you, then give them your business and pay them the retail price (which doesn't even make up for all of their time) because it is the right thing to do. It's a win-win for all parties involved.
I am not the national spokesperson for dealers but I am the type of person that understands that others have skills and knowledge that I do not possess and I routinely hire specialists such as interior designers, professional photographers, web designers, etc.
Actually, my website is another perfect example. I communicated exactly what I wanted and it turned out far better than had I done it myself.
Respectfully,
Burt |
Whart,
Well said.
I have no doubt that Mr. Tennis can do his own taxes, has his own methods, and does just fine but isn't it possible that an expert tax attorney could secure him a larger return? That's all I'm really saying.
And the big assumption or flaw, on my part, is that he will find someone, locally, that listens, cares, and is willing to invest the time.
Respectfully,
Burt |
Matching equipment by specs alone will usually yield very poor results. And, again, I maintain that a manufacturer hasn't heard his or her product with as many different types of products as a dealer.
My advice to you is to ask both - a knowledgeable dealer and the manufacturer. |
Mr. Tennis:
I know how to paint but I can not paint a masterpiece.
Best,
Burt
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And, metaphorically speaking, dealers don't tell you what movies to watch or which music that you should prefer.
Still metaphorically speaking, we introduce you to new movie technology, new studios, movies (classics, foreign films, independent film makers), actors, cinematographers, writers, etc.
AND if you can inform us as to which genre you prefer, your favorite cinematographer, actors, directors, etc. then we're likely to make recommendations that you would love...perhaps even replacing your current favorite movie.
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Mr. Tennis,
You're cordially invited to join me on a hifi adventure. Please take a trip with me to a number of manufacturers so that you can see how many different models of speakers an average hifi amplifier manufacturer owns or borrows to test his or her equipment. Or, how many different types of amplifiers that an average high-end loudspeaker manufacturer uses to design, develop, and test their speakers.
How much money do you really think they budget to spend on other people's gear for the sake of testing and exploring compatibilities?
I promise you enlightenment on this journey as, in my opinion, coming from someone who has already taken it, your faith is misplaced.
Manufacturers know about THEIR products and to this point I do not argue. However, when you start talking about how their product will perform within a system comprised of many products, or with another manufacturer's product, or in a specific room, or with a new control system, then they will most likely only reference the specs and make assumptions regarding engineering compatibility and not sonic compatibility. The two are not the same and I'm sure you realize this.
And, I'll be the first to admit if I don't know what to expect by pairing brand X with brand Y if I have never done so.
As a dealer that some manufacturers have turned to for beta-testing, I can tell you that most products are finalized in the field and dealers provide a considerable amount of field testing and data. When problems develop, manufacturers often turn to their dealers and integrators for suggestions and solutions.
So you see, it's not a one or the other type scenario. The relationship between manufacturer and dealer is symbiotic.
And, as such, I would recommend involving both. What's the harm in doing so?
Best,
Burt |
