Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

After 40 years in this hobby I deed it the other way round.

''My kingdom for a horse'' is focused on the person and his

needs. But what  about the horse? My brother Don (Griffits)

loves his dogs more than anybody else. To me a horse is much

more and more impressive than whatever dog. In short I just bought

for the first time in my life a cart for a SUT. There are people who

are scared by  horses while I was scared by the SUT's. Why?

Well because Dertonarm whom I much admire advised

''correspondence '' between inductance and impedance of both

component . In my case this would mean at least 10 SUT's.

Alas I am not family member of  the family Rockefeller. I don't

even believe that ''our Thuchan'' owns 10 SUT's despite the

fact that he owns more than 10 TT's . Nearly as many as  our

Lew who, curiously, does not own a single SUT. Anyway I ever

bought Denon AU-S1 which, according to its manual ''covers

 2 till 40 Ohms '' carts. My MC collection  ''covers'' about 30

''top'' MC carts. I was so impressed with  my Denon SUT that

 I treat the thing as if it become my ''primary''  horse.

For ''him''  I  bought the S1 cart which, also according to the

manual, was special made for the AU-S1. I obviously care

for my SUT . In about one week time both will be united.

Till then than.  

@ fsmithjack, To give you some impression about the prices.

In Europe the used Denon S1 is above 1000 euro. I bought my

in USA for $900 (NOS) . So will get a bargain for $600.

I like assumptions to be made explicit such that we can see

on what grounds the conclusions are made.

My assumptions regarding SUT are :

1. The inductance  and impedance of both need to

     correspond.

2. The SUT's are divided in 3 ''categories'': L,M and H.

    There is no exact or precise  information about the

    ''impedance range'' of each. Say 2-8 Ohms for Low;

     8- 15 (?) for M and above 15 for H.

      Because the usual approach is to search for the

     'right SUT'' for our specific MC cart this ''impedance

      matching'' is a kind of ''hit and miss'' affair .

3.   What about inductance? I have no idea about inductance

      of  any of my + 30 MC carts. How then should I search

      for the ''corresponding inductance''?

 Assuming that designers by Denon know the theory they

  have designed  DL-S1 to correspond with AU-S1 SUT.

So probably one will get a ''killer combo'' for about $2000.

With an decent MM phono-pre one does not need to buy

ridiculous expensive MC phono-pre as added advantage.

The question ''what kind of phono-pre do I need for the cart

x '' in the sense of the amplification value assumes a phono-

pre for just one cart. For the LO (low output) carts the advice is

''about 70 dB''. But what about more carts than just one?

There may be carts with higher output than ''LO''. Say above

0,3 mV. Well there are phono-pres with more than just one

amplification stage. I own Basis Exclusive with 4 amplification

stages as well Klyne 7 PX3.5 with also 4 amplification stages.

Both manuals advice the use of the lowest amplification stage

sufficient  for the given cart. Say 60 dB for 0.4 mV output.

The reason for this advice is that the higher the amplification

the higher the distortions. The curious thing by Klyne is the fact

that there is one more amplification stage which is not even

mentioned in the manual. Why? Probably because Klyne thought

that the distortion by this amplification is not acceptable for his

phono-pre. So he was satisfy with 63 dB. For those who own this

phono-pre switches 1,2,3,4 and 5 should be put ON to get 67 dB

amplification. One will not find those ''values'' in the user manual.

Well it seems obvious why people use SUT's for the (very) Low

output carts. Say bellow 0.2 mV.

The ''stylus fear'' and the ''level of ignorance''. My advice is to

first read what J. Carr wrote about ''carts repair''. The least

problem by comparison with cantilever and suspension change

is the stylus only exchange. Gluing the stylus in the existing

cantilever is more difficult than gluing the cantilever/stylus combo

on the so called ''joint (aluminum) pipe''. My friend Axel Schurholz

with + 40 years experience refused to do this job anymore. Two

years earlier he glued his best Shibata in my Blue Oasis for 200

euro. The usual boron/ Shibata combo cost 500 euro. We all have

heard about problems with (boron) cantilevers supply but even

bigger problem for the retippers is to get the right ''dampers''.

EMT is typical manufacturer who still need to solve this problem.

Their dampers are still worthless. About coils we can be short.

No retipper is willing to mess with coils. So defective coils are

the ''worst case scenario'' by second hand carts.

The ''Expert stylus'' site is not very informative but they also produce

styli. They produced those ''Stanton  styli''. My guess is that they

also produce Replicant for Ortofon. Anyway one can get their

''Paratrace'' ( a version of micro ridge)  stylus for about 180 GBP.

 This work (gluing the stylus in the cantilever) can only be done by

''masters'' because this work presuppose special skills. A cart

manufacturer would need to hire such person for this kind of work.

No wonder no manufacturer does this work. They prefer exchange

 of the whole generator instead. Those are produced as separate

parts and installed in different bodies (say Koetsu). My Koetsu

Rosewood Signature was ''refurbished'' this way but for 2200 euro.

 For ''big spenders'' who don't care about money, like some

Mexicans, this is obviously of no interest whatever. So such persons

 recommend ''refurbishing'' by the manufacturer. So in order to make

 their point they compare the situation with an Ferarri. Whatever may

 be defective one would be stupid to let ,say , some American garage

 to do the job but should post his car to Italy to the ''real 

manufacturer'' for ''refurbishing''.

Well it is easy to state that others are stupid , ignorant, have low

level learning curve, etc. ''qualifications''  but as one of our members

 just advised : ''look in the mirror man''  .

Well I don't believe that one can make music with cart alone.

Those who always refer to the system as whole should also

advice about the adequate phono- pre and its price, then the

right tonearm with its price,  then the right TT with its price,

then then the right amps and , most important, the speakers

and their price. How curious to forget all other necessary  

components. What kind of advice is an 1/5  advice?

@fsmithjack , i assume you selected all your components by

yourself? If so why do you need our advice for the cart? What

you need is the opportunity to hear some also for your self.

The carts are the most subjective parts in the whole chain so

each advice will only reflects the subjective preference of the

adviser. The curious case of our ''dualistic nature'': I want to

own the best (possible the most expensive) cart which nobody

else can afford  but I also want YOU to own the same cart.

There is no consistency in such ''double attitude'' (grin).

My Gosh I provoked lyrical feelings by @fsmithjack  so he

wrote an poem in prose about our hobby. The characteristic

of modesty and politeness is to ascribe a part of merit to

others. In my case this does not apply for my MC search and

choices. I deed this on my own (grin). The case is that we have

an huge MM-  but not an MC thread.

@fsmithjack , Our hobby is also about money so one need to

know something about the theory. Money means liquidity that

is the capability  to buy whatever you want . By barter you have

''the choice'' to get just one commodity in exchange for your

own. That is why people sell their stuff in order to get money.

I deed some with acquaintances because of  the reluctance to

sell to them but this kind of ''trade'' was very disappointing.  As

I already mentioned I paid $900 for the DL-S1 in America while

in Europe  those cost +900 euro. As I understand those Cinemag

SUT's are popular so you will have no problem to sell yours. 

To my mind this is an better proposition than your ''swap idea''.

I already own the AU-S1 so I am curious how an ''perfect SUT/

cart match'' will sound. I hope to get the cart next week.

I at last got my DL-S1. Designed specific for their very successful

AU-S1 SUT. Matching impedance between both is one thing

but how should one match the inductance of both when this

value is never mentioned by technical specs? Well we can

assume that DL-S1 is also matched qua inductance. For those

who believe that prices do matter an ''killer combo''. For about

$2000 one can get both. I like the balance between fundamentals

and harmonics by this cart but in particular reproduction of string

instruments. For about $900 an real bargain.