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Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

- Vinyl newbie and need some help

- Friend has a brand new  Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?

- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.

- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load

- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.

- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.

- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention

- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks

more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)

______________________________________________________________________________________


I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC. 

This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable. 

A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor. 

I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a  used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a  van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.

I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
  
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.

As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!

Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.

Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160

- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas

- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.

This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward 

** Back Ground info**

** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak

** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.

** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key  but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.

** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.

To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.

Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)




fsmithjack

Showing 8 responses by folkfreak

folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
@fsmithjack the VPI dual pivot mod is worth investigating -- most well designed unipivots include such a mechanism and it is good to see VPI finally getting around to this

Please take the feedback you get from @rauliruegas with a pinch of salt -- he is a notorious foe of tubes, step ups and unipivots and no matter what system you have if it includes one of these noxious devices he will criticize it. My system includes all three and has no restrictions at the frequency extremes, or in dynamics or anything else you care to mention

Unfortunately there's only so much you can learn about analog by asking questions on the web -- most of it has to be learned through practical experience working with many setups -- do you have a local "analog guru" that can come round and show you the ropes? You really need to be able to tear down your table, mount a new arm, and fully align any cartridge yourself -- otherwise you can never be sure the setup is correct (even a short trip back from the dealer can throw a setup off, and 9 out of 10 dealers don't set up that well anyway)
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
@rauliruegas your ability to diagnose the sound of a system by looking at photographs is amazing! I imagine you never need to leave your house and instead can imagine any sound from any system in the world

Anyway if you ever find yourself in Portland OR please feel free to swing by and see how far off your "deaf" (i.e. by which I mean unheard) evaluation is.

Here's a quote from a local manufacturer who swung by to install some new accessories in the system yesterday

Enjoyed seeing you and hearing your system again. A remarkable improvement to your great system from my last visit. I am very pleased with the further improvements from today’s goodies we installed. Particularly fun for me to hear the lower bass definition and the recording venue soundstage space that the bass revealed.
Anyway back to the OPs question -- while there are definitely differences in taste and presentation between different approaches there are many ways of getting to great analog sound but all require very careful setup and attention to selecting and matching the components along the way

And btw @rauliruegas I don't even necessarily disagree with you -- I'm currently for example awaiting a solid state phono stage to replace my tube one -- but it will be MM only hence the step up! The designer of this stage believes that any high gain (i.e. much above 40dB) phono stage represents unacceptable compromises ... again just one opinion and one approach, not suggesting this is gospel for all!
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
The 90 is an excellent cart however it’s lowish output at .270mV. With only 60dB in your phono plus 18dB in the pre you would get to 2.1V which is short of the 2.6V rated for maxiumum output for your X350.5. In other words another 3dB of gain would be nice depending how loud you listen

of bigger concern is buying a cart with 400 hours - that’s a really well used cart and you are paying $900 plus your 1131 (worth $650 or so) which is in line with what A90s have sold for but by no means a steal. Do you know the provenance of the cart? Has it had more than one user? Does it check out visually? Buying used carts is a real crap shoot and knowing the pedigree of the seller is key
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
@fsmithjack not sure if you’ve pulled the trigger on the clearaudio yet but this is a brand of cartridges that has a house sound, one many like but one that others (me included) have never warmed too

frankly if I was in your shoes I’d be sorely tempted by this setup - the tunability feature is very clever and you would also lean a lot about what you are looking for - price is also attractive and in line with your budget
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/musikraft-denon-dl-103-phonograph-cartridge/

folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
@rauliruegas once again you make a hyperbolic and extreme souffle of nonsense out of some helpful advice.

As you very well know gain matching is not only a matter of enabling the amp to deliver its rated output, if and ever needed, but is also about operating any volume control in the ideal range (i.e. towards the lower half or middle in most cases). In my own system going from a setup that delivered 60% of maximum rated input to one that delivered 300% was night and day -- the latter sounds so much more open and dynamic and allows me to operate the volume control at 30-40% of range rather than 70-80% and actually obviates the need for any gain in the pre-amp at all (i.e. I operate the pre-amp at below unity gain)

Gain matching is a matter of care across the full cascade and it ties one hand behind your back if your cascade cannot deliver full rated input to your amp. My observation was simply to suggest that he might care for a few dB more to guarantee this, not least if he should ever change his pre-amp or more likely decide to switch to a single ended rather than balanced configuration with the commensurate loss of gain across the chain 
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
When you have a spare minute set yourself up a simple gain-cascade spreadsheet that you can play around with (the math is 10 to the power gain in any step/20, where gain is in dB)

In practice it usually only matters in the pre to power step, that’s assuming you are not overloading an input at any prior stage. If you find you are operating the volume control at 75% of range or more you may be tight on gain. Also it’s a good idea to match gain between sources so that you don’t suddenly switch from one to the other and blow your speakers. Many modern preamps allow you to adjust sensitivity at the inputs for just this reason. Also many digital components have adjustable output levels for the same reason.

Finally be aware that many manufacturers do not implement balanced outputs well and a single ended connection may sound better. This is certainly the case with my DCS stack, it sounds notably better connected single ended (using exactly the same brand and length of cable) - you should check if this is the case with your Bricasti, don’t assume that they have done balanced well
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
Regarding setup of the cart you MUST invest in a decent tool, something like this would be the minimum I recommend
https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/pro-ject-align-it-cartridge-alignment-gauge

There are many other similar setups that can cost a whole lot more but do not try and do it with some flimsy paper wotsit printed off the net

folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,349 posts
 
@fsmithjack frankly I worry you are diving in head first and may waste a lot of time and money to no good outcome

Why exactly do you feel the need to add analog to your system anyway? Do you own 1000s of LPs? Are there specific genres you like that are only available on vinyl?

Without a real reason to get into vinyl why would you divert scarce $ that could go elsewhere in your system? Even if you accept (as I do) that the best vinyl can outdo the best digital, current digital (even red book) can sound magical and it will likely take an expenditure of much more than you are currently considering to get a vinyl setup that matches up to your current digital.

Add to this the fincky nature of vinyl and all the things that can go wrong I think you are letting yourself in for a whole lot of pain. Of course it will be fun to learn but don’t expect it to be easy and you should do everything you can at this stage not to make it more complicated than it needs to be (ie not starting out with what sounds like an oddball cart for example).

Anyway maybe i’m too late but do make sure you are prepared for what you are getting into
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