Dear friends : My take on this audio subject is that ech one of us are not totally rigth or totally wrong. In some ways each one of us have more or less " reasons " about.
What’s not questionable is each one of us preferences, this is out of question.
I’m with the gentlemans that think today digital technology is superior to the analog/LP medium. Even that I like LP technology too, at the end I’m a music lover and then an audiophile too.
Digital and LP have its own trade offs, a lot more negative trade-offs in the LP side nd that’s why makes no sense to me that some of you are against digital because does not sounds like the LP but all of you analog lovers need to make a favor and ask your self: why digital should be sound s analog when analog/LP is a wrong technology full of degradations and full of distortions? why is your reference against digital?
Maybe could be because is what we are accustom to for many many years but this fact does not tell me and can’t tell me is the rigth way to go because today it’s not when the digital it’s.
I listen to both formats and even that like almost all of you I’m accustom to LP sound I know for sure digital is superior.
LP signal degradations and full of distortions????. Please let me explain where through the long road the recorded LP signal information must pass before we can listen nothing through our speakers:
With out " seeing " both whole proccess ( digital/LP ) I want to analize 2-3 steps on the analog side:
RIAA eq.: this analog recording step is " fulminant " for the audio signal, terrible for say the least, because we have to think that from 20 hz to 20 khz the audio signal is equalized in between ( around ) -18 db to +18 db. In reality the RIAA is an equalization curve, a severe one that affects every single MUSIC note/harmonics.
Other step is that the equalized audio signal must be recorded/cutted and end in the vinyl material where is imposible to be faithful to that " original " equalized audio signal.
All these severe audio signal degradation does not exist in the digital recording process that’s more " direct " than analog.
Exist other degradation issues in the analog recording process but with those are enough by now.
Playback at each one of us room/system:
digital is extremely easy and more " direct " too, with a lot lesser signal degradation than in analog and when we are taling of " signal degradation " we are talking that we are adding distortions at each of those additional steps.
Digital needs a DAC and is " done ". There is no need of a phono cartridge with all its disadvantages and other additional steps to listen it.
During playback process and before the cartridge we have to " figth " with every kind of unstabilities in the TT even on speed accuracy, motor noises, damping problems and the like.
Along those comes the LP imperfections as: off center records and the fact that all LP comes with macro and micro surface waves due that are not totally flat. All those develops additional distortions to the analog playback experiences.
But not all stops there, the worst is forth coming when the stylus tip touch the first recorded groove:
first than all is that for the playback process stays faithful to the recording that stylus tip must be ridding/tracking exactly with the same angle that the grooves where cutted ( this never happens not even in LT tonearms. ) and must rides/follow those grooves adding nothing but the movements/modulations that produces those grooves.
This is that must mimic the grooves with out any kind of generated vibrations/movements kind of feedback: impossible to achieve it, all the analog playback process is added by different kind of distortions and we can´t do nothing at all.
ELLIOT.. POSTED: """ analog is unbroken ribbon, digital is an assembled chain. """ really?. No way my friend, analog is an assemblend chain and not only because the cartridge stylus can’t read exactly the recorded modulations but because at micro and I mean it MICRO levels the stylus tip is not riding stable and continuos but with micro jumps. Each groove modulation is an obstacle/wall for the cartridge very tiny stylus tip
In that stylus tip job exist differences on the problem/distortions levels depending on the stylus tip shape, stylus clean shape, stylus tip damaged level, LP surface clean condition or dust, and very critical the self cartridge tracking abilities and the cartridge/tonearm accuracy in the set-up. A nigthmare for say the least.
But things go on: that cartridge is mounted in an imperfect item name it: tonearm that generates by it self several kind of different distortion levels some by its feedback and some other because not well damped design and all these affects and degrades the audio signal.
Additional the audio signal must pass through the tonearm internal wires and cartridge tonearm input/output male/female connectors before gone to the phono stage. More distortions generated there.
The worst for the end: signal goes through the phono stage:
at this step begins the real earthwake a full 10.0 Ritcher scale one when that already and heavy degraded audio signal must pass for the inverse RIAA eq. that never can mimic the recorded RIAA eq. due that always exist deviations ( the phono stage spec in your unit: 20 hz to 20 khz +,- 0.1 db., in the best cases. ).
This second equalization stage destroy per se what left of that audio signal but things goes on because the signal must be amplified almost 10K times ! ! ! ( LOMC cartridges. ) before the linepreamp can handle the signal.
So, now just imagine if what we are listening through the LP is better than on digital medium where the signal did not pass through all those " torture " analog steps..
We like analog because for to many years we are accustomed to those very high distortion levels: we are accustom to, our ears/brain takes it as the rigth sound to listen MUSIC when digital is something totally " new " for the brain. NO analog/LP it’s not the rigth sound.
Today digital is nearest to the recording and nearest to what the recording microphones pick-up and these means nearest to the live music. Analog/LP is far far away from there no matters what.
Btw, all those gentlemans that can’t listening for more than 20 minutes digital because the " harsness " or digital sound have a room/system probelm and why I think this way:
digital is really more more demanding that analog. Through today digital medium this medium can’t hide all the room/systems " errors "/distortions at each one room/system link when through analog/LP all those room/system self distortions are totally hidden due to the higher distortions generated/developed in the LP playback proccess.
Today digital is a true test for every single room/system. If digital just does not performs good/rigth in your system then you are in trouble. Period.
In the other side nothing is wrong with digital vs analog because for your information inside our ears all of us have an ADC !!!! surprise?, please read these article information where we can read these 3 highligths about:
""" the ear. This small organ has quite a few surprises in store for us. We’ see that it’s literally crammed with equalisers and dynamic compressors, including a multi‑band one. It even includes an extremely efficient filter bank, as well as a highly sophisticated analogue‑to‑digital converter.
The Inner Ear: Multi‑band Compression, Pitch Tracking & ADC
"" There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. """
" "With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. """
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Just for your records please read what this gentleman posted on digital:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/interesting-project-started-by-michael-fremer/post?postid=1261854#1261854
and look his room/system:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615
What’s not questionable is each one of us preferences, this is out of question.
I’m with the gentlemans that think today digital technology is superior to the analog/LP medium. Even that I like LP technology too, at the end I’m a music lover and then an audiophile too.
Digital and LP have its own trade offs, a lot more negative trade-offs in the LP side nd that’s why makes no sense to me that some of you are against digital because does not sounds like the LP but all of you analog lovers need to make a favor and ask your self: why digital should be sound s analog when analog/LP is a wrong technology full of degradations and full of distortions? why is your reference against digital?
Maybe could be because is what we are accustom to for many many years but this fact does not tell me and can’t tell me is the rigth way to go because today it’s not when the digital it’s.
I listen to both formats and even that like almost all of you I’m accustom to LP sound I know for sure digital is superior.
LP signal degradations and full of distortions????. Please let me explain where through the long road the recorded LP signal information must pass before we can listen nothing through our speakers:
With out " seeing " both whole proccess ( digital/LP ) I want to analize 2-3 steps on the analog side:
RIAA eq.: this analog recording step is " fulminant " for the audio signal, terrible for say the least, because we have to think that from 20 hz to 20 khz the audio signal is equalized in between ( around ) -18 db to +18 db. In reality the RIAA is an equalization curve, a severe one that affects every single MUSIC note/harmonics.
Other step is that the equalized audio signal must be recorded/cutted and end in the vinyl material where is imposible to be faithful to that " original " equalized audio signal.
All these severe audio signal degradation does not exist in the digital recording process that’s more " direct " than analog.
Exist other degradation issues in the analog recording process but with those are enough by now.
Playback at each one of us room/system:
digital is extremely easy and more " direct " too, with a lot lesser signal degradation than in analog and when we are taling of " signal degradation " we are talking that we are adding distortions at each of those additional steps.
Digital needs a DAC and is " done ". There is no need of a phono cartridge with all its disadvantages and other additional steps to listen it.
During playback process and before the cartridge we have to " figth " with every kind of unstabilities in the TT even on speed accuracy, motor noises, damping problems and the like.
Along those comes the LP imperfections as: off center records and the fact that all LP comes with macro and micro surface waves due that are not totally flat. All those develops additional distortions to the analog playback experiences.
But not all stops there, the worst is forth coming when the stylus tip touch the first recorded groove:
first than all is that for the playback process stays faithful to the recording that stylus tip must be ridding/tracking exactly with the same angle that the grooves where cutted ( this never happens not even in LT tonearms. ) and must rides/follow those grooves adding nothing but the movements/modulations that produces those grooves.
This is that must mimic the grooves with out any kind of generated vibrations/movements kind of feedback: impossible to achieve it, all the analog playback process is added by different kind of distortions and we can´t do nothing at all.
ELLIOT.. POSTED: """ analog is unbroken ribbon, digital is an assembled chain. """ really?. No way my friend, analog is an assemblend chain and not only because the cartridge stylus can’t read exactly the recorded modulations but because at micro and I mean it MICRO levels the stylus tip is not riding stable and continuos but with micro jumps. Each groove modulation is an obstacle/wall for the cartridge very tiny stylus tip
In that stylus tip job exist differences on the problem/distortions levels depending on the stylus tip shape, stylus clean shape, stylus tip damaged level, LP surface clean condition or dust, and very critical the self cartridge tracking abilities and the cartridge/tonearm accuracy in the set-up. A nigthmare for say the least.
But things go on: that cartridge is mounted in an imperfect item name it: tonearm that generates by it self several kind of different distortion levels some by its feedback and some other because not well damped design and all these affects and degrades the audio signal.
Additional the audio signal must pass through the tonearm internal wires and cartridge tonearm input/output male/female connectors before gone to the phono stage. More distortions generated there.
The worst for the end: signal goes through the phono stage:
at this step begins the real earthwake a full 10.0 Ritcher scale one when that already and heavy degraded audio signal must pass for the inverse RIAA eq. that never can mimic the recorded RIAA eq. due that always exist deviations ( the phono stage spec in your unit: 20 hz to 20 khz +,- 0.1 db., in the best cases. ).
This second equalization stage destroy per se what left of that audio signal but things goes on because the signal must be amplified almost 10K times ! ! ! ( LOMC cartridges. ) before the linepreamp can handle the signal.
So, now just imagine if what we are listening through the LP is better than on digital medium where the signal did not pass through all those " torture " analog steps..
We like analog because for to many years we are accustomed to those very high distortion levels: we are accustom to, our ears/brain takes it as the rigth sound to listen MUSIC when digital is something totally " new " for the brain. NO analog/LP it’s not the rigth sound.
Today digital is nearest to the recording and nearest to what the recording microphones pick-up and these means nearest to the live music. Analog/LP is far far away from there no matters what.
Btw, all those gentlemans that can’t listening for more than 20 minutes digital because the " harsness " or digital sound have a room/system probelm and why I think this way:
digital is really more more demanding that analog. Through today digital medium this medium can’t hide all the room/systems " errors "/distortions at each one room/system link when through analog/LP all those room/system self distortions are totally hidden due to the higher distortions generated/developed in the LP playback proccess.
Today digital is a true test for every single room/system. If digital just does not performs good/rigth in your system then you are in trouble. Period.
In the other side nothing is wrong with digital vs analog because for your information inside our ears all of us have an ADC !!!! surprise?, please read these article information where we can read these 3 highligths about:
""" the ear. This small organ has quite a few surprises in store for us. We’ see that it’s literally crammed with equalisers and dynamic compressors, including a multi‑band one. It even includes an extremely efficient filter bank, as well as a highly sophisticated analogue‑to‑digital converter.
The Inner Ear: Multi‑band Compression, Pitch Tracking & ADC
"" There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. """
" "With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. """
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Just for your records please read what this gentleman posted on digital:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/interesting-project-started-by-michael-fremer/post?postid=1261854#1261854
and look his room/system:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615