Wilson Sophia2s demand better than AYRE V5xe, so..


...What would you recommend?

Just took delivery of Wilson Sophia 2s. Plinius CD101 - Ayre K1xe - Ayre V5xe - Sophia 2s. Synergistic Research cables.

The K1xe is very good, I'd like to keep it, but I need a new amp.

The V5xe is too lean in the midbass, no texture or bloom. Soundstage is okay, but not "full" enough. No deep bass!

At the RMAF, I liked VAC phi 200s on the Von Schweikert VR-9se AND on the Greshman Black Swans as a point of reference.

I'm open to tubes or SS, but I think tubes might get me where I want to go. I'm looking for very full and detailed imaging that absolutely floats in the air, with intense layering, body and texture. I need better control over these speakers, and stronger deep bass output, speakers sound too thin now. I want fullness of images like MBL speakers, but with a more natural, involving midrange like the best Acapellas.

Budget is 10k new or used. Again, looking for a warmer, natural sound with very delineated images that complement my dynamic Wilson speakers, so don't underpower me!...
hce4

Showing 7 responses by hce4

Thank you both, SS is convenient, but if there are no SS amps that can do what I'm looking for, then I welcome tubes...

Forgot to mention, would like to run balanced as the Ayre K1xe performs best in balanced mode along with my Plinius CD101 and I've spent $$$ on balanced cables.

Keep the ideas coming...
Musicslug -GOOD QUESTION!

The Sophias are broken in. They were purchased and set up by an authorized dealer as a "demo" pair.

My dealer is pushing VTL MB450 SII and VTL 6.5 pre, but at $26.5k, plus CA taxes, I don't see the value. The MB450s at $15k is a little spendy, but it may be one of the best options.

Audphile1,

Thinking outside the box are you? Swaping the preamp could be a good idea, I'll borrow my dealers VTL 6.5 and see where it takes me with the Ayre amp.

Plinius:

I have a Plinius 9200 integrated which does okay with the Sophias and sounds more magical than the Ayre, but lacks control, impact and transparency. A bigger Plinius could be the ticket since I've got Plinius as a source?

Not enough experience with the other brands mentioned, but great ideas everyone...
I suppose I should mention the system that inspired me to purchase the Wilson Sophia 2s:

Wilson Sophia 2 speakers
SME 30/2 turntable (don't know what the cartridge was)
VTL 6.5 phono preamp
VTL 7.5 series 2 preamp
VTL MB450 series 2 mono amplifiers
Transparent top cables (don't know what models, but all the cables combined cost way more than the speakers, I was told)
Room - 21x15x10 feet and very well treated!

Similar experience to Johnnyb53. I kept thinking, this is unlike anything I have ever heard before, words simply fail.

One recommendation I received via email is to consider a new source, and specifically a new turntable. As we all know, turntables offer the best bang for your buck when it comes to value and sound quality. Most agree the ratio between turntables and CD players is 3 to 1, meaning, you'd have to spend 3x as much on a CD player to acheive similar sound on a turntable that costs 3x less. Plus, we all know that a good vinyl set up can give those things I'm looking for such as tone, bloom, dimensionality, spacious and natural sound. Another suggestion from someone thinking outside the box, as was the tube preamp change and room "tweaking" suggestions...

But, it doesn't change the fact that the Ayre amp is lacking, in my system, bottom end extension, pitch and impact, midrange texture and body, and utlimately control.

Ultimately I may find the VTL gear I originally auditioned is the solution to sonic bliss for me, but I welcome any further comments and opinions on the matter. I'm trying to recreate what I experienced with VTL on a smaller budget... I'll keep you all posted!
Jdolgin brings up a good point...

I'd also like to add that while my dealer set up the Sophias personally in my home, they ended up in a position I would never have guessed. Room is 15x15 with a vaulted ceiling from 10-15 feet and open to other areas of the house (ie. lots of area to pressurize and the potential of peaks and valleys)

They are much closer to the back wall (6" or so) with very little toe in (maybe 2" turned inward from straight ahead alignment). I had SF Cremonas before, and it took me months to dial them in - 3 feet off the front wall and nearly a straight-to-the-ears toe in.

I'm not saying the speakers are in a horrible spot, but the set up took about 30 minutes, and there was no complicated tape on the floor or "walk and talk" voicing Wilson Audio normally recommends. ???

Don't get me wrong, the speakers provide excellent separation of instruments and a somewhat focused image with okay depth. For example, listen to the opening of Breaking Silence from Janis Ian and on my system you'll hear her singing solidly in three different spaces, but I know this track and it could be better. Problem is, I can't tell if it's the speakers positioning or the electronics that are failing to give me the extra soundstaging abilities Wilson is known for. However, as mentioned above, I can hear the amp running out of juice and I'm missing certain qualities (bass, texture, etc.)...
Kurt_Tank,

Thanks for the input, being in CA too, I know the heat will be a bear to deal with!

Also, did you try the M1.1/M1.2? I'm wondering how the 100 watt version compared to the 200 watt version?

Thanks!
Just to update the thread:

I played around with positioning, WOW that made a difference.

Moving the speakers further out into the room and toe-ing them in so they fire about 2 feet behind my head really made all the difference in the world.

The speakers now disappear and the soundsage has expanded in all directions. There is no muddiness to any peformer's position. Bass which was more one note has developed texture and defintion. Everything is more resolved and well placed within the soundstage.

That being said, the Ayre equipment partnered with the Sophias lacks weight in instruments and voice. It also creates a soundstage that is too delineated, lacking a cohesive and coherent soundstage. Transients are sharp and do not bloom as they should. Think of RCA cables versus XLR on equipment that should be run unbalanced. Sure it's quieter, but you sacrifice part of the musical message. The last breath of a performer, the key of a piano held or the plucked string of a guitar that resonates through the wood. This is the way Ayre made me feel, incomplete, edgy, separated. Perhaps on warmer, less resolving speakers, this hyper delineation would be great, but on my Wilsons, I need the full musical expression.

So, I was set to try Lamm M1.2 reference amps, but wanted to try a cheaper solution first. Heck with the Lamms, I could have gone with the VTL's, the amps that inspired the purchase of my Sophias. I tried the Pass Labs XA30.5. On the Sophia 2s and in my situation, it has provided the perfect amplification solution. I feel this Pass amp is more resolving and transparent than the Ayre V5xe, but not exactly in the traditional "see through" transparency effect. Ayre may have the edge there. No, with the Pass I feel I am getting the full musical message, I feel like I can hear more of everything. In addition, everything is no longer separated, but woven together without any loss of real resolution. The soundstage is finally coherent. I feel like I am listening to music, with all the different instruments, voices and effects woven together but stable and distinct on the soundstage. The edginess is gone and I can hear deeper into the music.

The thing I would like to stress most about this Pass labs amp is it's coherence. Think of coherence in the best possible way, stability, fullness, complete.

The Ayre K1xe mates very well with the Pass XA30.5, but ultimately I will find a better matching preamp. I'll update the thread when I make that discovery, but remember these are just my experiences in my room and the reflect only my opinions. Hearing the Ayre MXRs with Vandersteen Quatro Woods was an amazing experience and suffered none of the faults I experienced in my setup, so truly YMMV!
Stringreen,

I ran the Ayre components completely balanced with Synergistic Research's top Tesla cables (Apex & Precision).

In addition, I have Sonus Faber Cremonas, and even with the Ayre and Sonus Faber, I got similar results.

The Vandersteen and Ayre combo put the Ayre in the best light I've heard yet, but I still prefer a well set up Wilson system. It may be the speakers, but after many auditions I kept going back to my Wilson dealer and appreciating all that the Sophias did...

I suppose Ayre is just not for me, but I'm sure many others love Ayre for exactly the same qualities that drove me away. YMMV.

Thanks again for all the comments, repositioning made the strongest difference as many of you suspected!