You should consider finding a pair of the Paradigm Person 9H to listen to.
The Persona can easily give a pair of Alexia's a run for their money in terms of sound quality, they can however do something that no Wilson speaker can do at any price can do, which is to work in much smaller rooms, and work well.
We demoed the 9H in a similar sized room at the New York audio show and they sounded fantastic.
The 9H uses active room control to cancel out standing waves and eq the bass to work in a small room.
Add to that incredibly transparent pure beryllium drivers and the worlds first pure 7 inch Beryllium midrange driver for a completely coherent sound, thunderous well defined bass and 96db efficiency, and they are priced at $20k less then an pair of Alexia.
If you are on the East Coast of the US please come in for a demo at the Audio Doctor showroom. |
James, What kind of comment is I was disappointed by those prices I would probably have one of the more mature "high end brands." Paradigm has been building well respected speakers for years, their signature series was very highly rated and were compared against similar high performance brands and products. As per pricing the Personas use some of the most advanced driver technology in the industry and their new Pesona speakers can compete easily with Magico, YG and many others in terms of performance, so unless you think a pair of $40k Magicos is a bargain the speakers are priced actually very reasonably. In the case of the Persona 7F which is the exact same speaker as the 9H without the 2 additional internal bass drivers and active room correction, here is a speaker flat down to 19hz and sells for $25k, I do believe a comparable Magico such as the S5 which costs $38k for a similar level of performance so again I would ask you how are these new Personas overpriced? In terms of damping, Beryllium is known for both its lightness and its stiffness as well as being the only metal which is self damping, and such is a far superior material than almost all other metals which exhibit ringing such as aluminum or titanium. Your comments are unfortunately what I feel is wrong in the industry, instead of some of you being intrigued by a new product which may actually offer better sound for less money than some of the other brands out there I just hear negativity. Audio as with anything else should be about exploring and if a new product from a well established company raises the bar or offers great performance people should have an open mind. As per Gpgru negative comments about me shilling he should be ashamed of himself. I entered this post because here you have a gentleman who is interested in a superb set of speakers and is worried how well the speaker can perform in his room and along comes a new technologically more advanced product that also sounds good with one major advantage: ACTIVE ROOM CORRECTION, and none of you say hey that is a great idea, active room correction that can give this man fantastic deep bass response in HIS room. To which if I was reading that post I would have thought I would need to take a listen to those speakers. Taste is a different matter the Wilsons have a different sonic flavor than the Paradigms which are far more transparent, which might be an issue for some people, as such a transparent speaker must be carefully matched to sound good, where a Wilson speaker can be played with a lot of different gear and will still sound good. So in closing it seems that you guys will have to wait a month for the validation from the experts I liked Kuppe post from SOMEONE who actually heard the speakers, and not at a show, and thank you FinBx1 for your nice comments. So if these speakers are not that good how come the editor of the Absolute Sound said in his review: "Good things do come in a relatively small packages although this is a nearly 300 lb speaker that is 51 inches high. It uses four new ultra high excursion woofers, two 700 watt amps and ARC 2 digital room compensation to produce incredibly deep, accurate bass flat to 19hz and going as low as 15hz. It also features an advance beryllium tweeter and midrange driver and provides equally outstanding midrange and treble performance in every aspect. Detail dynamics, depth and imaging are all excellent. Sensitivity is 96db, allowing use with even low power triodes and providing, an exceptional sense of life with more powerful amps, AHC forthcoming" page 54 Absolute Sound Editors Choice 2017. Gee I guess the Absolute Sound is also shilling now aren’t they or perhaps the new Personas are truly excellent line of new speakers from an outstanding company that has always played safe who recently five years ago, decided to build a product to challenge the best speakers on the market. Its funny that I don’t hear these same arguments from the Vandersteen boys, when for years Vandersteen built great affordable speakers and then boom comes a new $60k flagship from Richard and everyone applauds him for building an aspirational product when they traditional never played in that arena before.
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First to 996cupracer, enjoy your Wilsons they are very fine speakers and incidentally I owned Wilson 3s and 5s in the past so I know a lot about the Wilson house sound. The reason I commented on this post, was your interest in the Alexia which would not work well in your room and to mention an option that you might not have known about or even considered. Whether you like product A or product B is not the issue, the issue in my mind is the negativity and brand zealotry that many audiophiles in this forum exhibit. To Grpu I never said that the Paradigms are better speakers then a Wilson or a Magico or any of the other brands that I mentioned, I said they do certain things as well or perhaps better as many of the well known reference speakers brands that everyone is always discussing. that is not to say that they are better speakers, that is for the listener to determine. As per the Absolute Sound Magazine the full review isn't out until next month, however, the snippet of the review shows that indeed Paradigm has built a product which can compete with Wilson, Magico, YG etc, and again it is up to the potential purchaser to seek out a good demo and judge for themselves, it does look like Paradigm has arrived and has shown the world that they can build a true reference product. I did say we preferred the Personas to the other reference speakers we have tested in our shop including the Kharmas, which were excellent just not worth $120k, we also sell the KEF Blades which I do think are superb, I think the Personas do certain things better and I prefer due to the greater transparency of the Paradigms As per Dave's track record on finding and picking very high value to dollar and great sounding products his record is clear, we do not say that all of our products are the best we like them for what they do for a particular reason, taste and price point. Usher made and still makes a fantastic product, we chose to drop them due to their weight and lack of a new US distributor. I would still take a pair of Scaena loudspeakers compared to the Wilson Alexandria, we chose to move on from them for reasons not relating to their sound which was some of the best we have ever experienced, by the was Johnathan Valin raved over them too! Other brands we have championed include Conrad Johnson, Nuforce now Nuprime, T+A, Aqua Hifi, Light Harmonic. We have many brands of speakers in our shop, including Dali, KEF, Legacy, ATC, Paradigm, Gradient, Vivid, Tannoy and others. We are very found of ATC which do not use exotic drivers either, they use paper cones and silk tweeters by the way. ATC makes all their own drivers and their drivers are superb, the are also very holographic and very dynamic. We would still say that for an ultimate reference speaker there are advantages in superior lighter and stiffer materials which we feel create a more pinpoint soundstage and greater low level detailing. We have the $70k Polymer Research MKXs which uses the extremely expensive Acuton pure diamond midrange and tweeter in a 400 lb enclosure and I think you would freak out after hearing this level of transparency and holography. We are choosing to focus more on the Paradigm Personas as they are $35k less than the Polymers, have adjustable room tuning and come in stunning colors and have a full line of speakers instead of one model add to that the Polymers are 400lbs and tough to transport is the reason. A forum is a place where ideas get exchanged it is not for the exclusion or inclusion of a particular group and back to Grpu your thinking and reasoning is specious, dealers are not allowed to sell into other territories and many people in these forums live on a different coast and will visit their local dealer and not us, so we have nothing to gain. Many of the people who post here offer ridiculous comments which show their lack of experience, and your criticality of what a "dealer says" is just about selling a product is ridiculous. All I know is most dealers must purchase their products, if a dealer is buying a product unless that dealer is completely dishonest to themselves, are purchasing products that they believe in and are impressed in enough to purchase and therefor recommend. Again directed to Grpu if you don't think that some of the avid posters here are not in your words "shills" for Vandersteeen or for Harbeth or Magico, whatever, think again. The final word will always be the customer and we are proud of our products and we would welcome you to hear for yourself these products at our shop just to see for yourself just how good or bad in your minds the new Personas actually are. |
Hey James sticks and stones. I will stick to my guns, we make great sound and sell fantastic products so if you want to open up your mouth go right ahead. What I have said about the Personas does seem to ring true or the Absolute Sound wouldn't have said such nice things about them. You guys who doubt will see, the Persona is a world class product. Per cupracer enjoy your Wilsons they are very good speakers, and I would take them over the other speakers you mentioned, although I have very limited experience with the Sopras, but they probably have a slightly more forward less bass type of sound vs the Wilsons. I would have gone to some of the other dealers and listened to the other competitive products at this price range, but that is just me. I am curious to see if you did that or just checked out what one dealer was selling before you pulled the trigger? |
Sorry to sound to you as shameless. If I was a reader of these posts I would find many of these comments helpful and for your edification, we have talked to other people who have found much of what I have said to be helpful and insightful. The main reason for posting about the Personas had nothing to do with trolling a Wilson post, it was due to you looking at an Alexia and offering you another option for a speaker that would work well. Please feel free to give us a call if you are in our area and do want to check out the Personas, I think you would have had a great time visiting our shop. I was just curious as to your shopping experiences and how you went about it and what speakers were on your list? The Sashas are very good speakers, I agree with you about preferring them over the B&W, which I find the Diamond tweeters to be a bit much, Golden Ear aren't in this league. As per the Alexias, they are too big for your room and yes they do sound similar. Again, good luck with your Sashas. |
Gee Ohlala I don't know if that is a compliment or a dig, if it was a compliment, I think that people who work in dealerships can be a great resource as they have tremendous real world experience, and for that reason a dealer's response may be very helpful. If it was a dig then you need to understand where I am coming from:
Most of my responses were about being attacked by Grpu who obviously feels threatened that there may be a product better than a Wilson that he already owns, and as I said both Dave and I owned Wilsons before, so we both like and respect the Wilson sound, it is however a sound and it is a product with specific strengths and weaknesses as all of these products have. None of these products are perfect including the brands we sell!
Our philosophy is different, some dealers are brand loyal, while others are sound loyal. We have moved in and out of numerous lines, chasing great sound, while some of our competitors just stick with the same lines and never explore some of the newer and sometimes more adventurous lines of new products which are out there. I know of certain dealers who have always sold B&W no matter if B&W was building the best speaker or not at the time, etc, etc.
If you noticed I never said that one product was better I said he should check them out because they may, and I use the word may, have been the perfect product for this gentleman's room and setup, and then again maybe not, Beryllium drivers sound very different then silk and wood pulp based drivers, and in some setups can be too revealing.
I will say that Wilsons can sound really good with a lot of different gear, I don't think the Personas are as forgiving and are more likely to sound more forward, which is why Grpu probably didn't like them, when he heard them, also they do sound different, there are Wilson guys, Magico guys, Vandersteen guys etc, and I am sure all of those people totally think that there choice is the best.
As I explained earlier, the sole reason I even posted on this thread was to point out a product that Cupracer probably wasn't thinking about, at this point very few people have heard the new Persona line, and the press is just starting to review them, so very few purchasers are even thinking of this line.
The main point was here is a competitive product that will or can work well in a small room, because the product was designed using technology which allows for room compensation in the bass, and in passing, I said if this gentleman was on the East Coast he should check them out.
Only after Cupracer mentioned that he was at Lyric was there any possibility of him hearing the speakers at our shop, once he started the thread he could have been anywhere in the world, so the likely-hood of him being close to us was only a remote possibility at best, this means we had nothing to gain.
I find it odd that almost none of you are concerned that the Sashas with their 20hz or so bass response will sound remotely good in this room vs his old Sonus Fabers which probably don't go down past 40hz, which would mean the Sonus Fabers would sound better in the bass then the more capable Wilsons.
Cupracer has a great room, however, I feel that it is too small especially for the short wall to sound anything other then boomy with a pair of Sashas, I guess time will tell once Cupracer gets the speakers, I would advise him to only continue with the purchase if Lyric will setup a pair in his room before he takes delivery to guarantee they will work, and Cupracer will be happy.
I hope that clarifies my position and I wish Cupracer nothing but the best.
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Again, Grpu, you put me on the defensive with all your bull and your defender of morality and propriety, stance. This is a forum, for open exchange, I explained my affiliation and offered a simple alternative, which is no different than some of the other posters who sometimes reply on these threads.
You complained that your issue was with meeting Dave and being turned off by his promoting and extolling the virtues of a pair of Usher speakers at a show? Correct, and that in your words his "hyperbolic" presentation turned you off, gee it seems to me that a Vandersteen dealer promoting the new 7’s would be saying the same things.
Usher speakers offered also very advanced driver technology, and at the time produced great sound for usually less money then many of their competitors, so wouldn’t you be exposing that concept, great sound for less money? Would any dealer who is representing this brand then say an Usher speaker is a better speakers then brand Y, I highly doubt it, the demo would be about creating great sound and offering a competitive product that might sound as good as brand Y for less money, and as I pointed out Usher in the next few years got a lot of traction for just that offering fantastic sound quality for less.
Two people who actually came here and visited the shop,with one man owning a pair of Wilson 8s, came to our defense. The man who owned the Wilson 8’s said he thought the Personas were better, interesting isn’t it?
If I may remind you it is you that went out of your way to raise and cast aspersions on a person’s character and motivations.
What I said was a few sentences about how there may be a product which because of its room correction technology may enable this man to produce the results he is looking for in a small room, it was you who continued to push and hence there were lengthy exchanges to explain my position.
Taste and preference is a personal thing, we strive to find outstanding products, and if you think that many dealers aren’t in it just for the money think again, there are plenty that sell products they carry because they are easy to sell or are established reference brands.
I also advised this man to have his dealer bring over and setup these speakers in his room to guarantee that he is happy. It certainly doesn’t seem that through a forum post anyone is going to change this man’s mind.
He likes Wilson’s that is great, let’s just make sure he is getting the results he is paying for which is the coaching I would have given him if he was dealing with us in the first place.
You don’t sell Wilson Max for guys with small rooms, but I am sure there are dealers who took the money and run.
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Crazyeddy the issue is not if the dealer is going to setup them up that is a given, what will happen if they over load his room and has too much or boomy bass then what? If I was the dealer I would be very concerned that the speakers are on the short wall, and it is not a near-field issue or not, I like listening in the near field, it is just easier to exacerbate bass issues. Which is why I suggested that his dealer brings over a set before he takes delivery. As per Spencer again, this thread got high-jacked by Grpu attacking me the company, and our integrity and motivations. If you notice I made one comment, about how this one pair of speakers and not any of the other speakers we sell, might, be an even better choice. It was a few lines, and hardly a diatribe or anything other than that.
Troy Audio Doctor Jersey CIty NJ www.audiodoctor.com 877-428-2873 Is that better Spencer? Honestly I wish Cupracer the best I just want him to be happy, and he may end up thrilled or not, are the Wilsons Sashas better speakers then his Sonus yes of course they are and I like Wilsons it will all come down to how Cupracers room and gear choice align with the Sashas. |
Grpu please just shut up. Your relentless attacks and tirades are tiring you bring nothing to the table, and you hold a grudge about sitting in a demo and being sold to what 10 years ago, when a dealer presented Usher speakers as offering great sound and being reasonably priced.
To this day the memory player continues to amaze people who have heard it, so what is your point, go hear Clement Perry's $500k system it uses a memory player by the way.
So your feelings where hurt by a man whose presentation was "hyperbolic" in your terms by representing products which were under priced and over performing? As I pointed out previously in the following years the Usher Be 718 and DMD 718 received scores of fantastic reviews.
As per your conduct here, I made one reference to the Personas as having room correction and costing $20k less then the Alexias, if this man could find a speaker with unique room correcting capabilities that might actually perform better then a pair of Alexias or Sashas in his room, gee what a crime, we got this man to have better bass, and saved him $20k, wow what a bad guy to have pointed out a unique product that Cupracer wasn't thinking about or knew about, by the way that is what Forums are supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas.
If you cry foul every time anyone bring up anything different in a Forum you will be eliminating why Forums exist in the first place.
Both Dave and myself learn from other peoples experiences and we are always finding and testing new products sometimes based on what people have said in a Forum.
As per your critique on our comments, we have tested several fantastic and pricey speakers in the same room under the same criteria, we have been on a high performance loudspeaker bender for quite a while:
We have tested the following speakers under identical testing methodology
1: Kef Blades, a $32K speaker that sounds like a $70k speaker as also stated by one of the British mags, we love the Blades the Personas do certain things way better.
2: Polymer Research MKX-S $70k 400lb all metal cabinet with Acuton Diamond midrange and tweeter, one of the most remarkable speakers ever built in some ways better than the Personas, in other ways not, and at twice the price we decided to focus on the Personas which compete against them.
3: Kharma DB 7 and Elegance brought in for evaluation, and both sounded great the $120k Elegance sounded very good but was not better then the Personas in any appreciable way and were huge in physical size so we passed on them.
4: We had a pair of trade in Maxx 3 by the way also here.
Lastly a man who owns Wilson Watt 8 heard the Personas at our shop, with the right matching equipment, and was blown away by them and stated they sounded way better the his Watt Puppy 8, or don't you read?
The Personas are incredibly transparent and are one of the most holographic speakers I have ever heard and again TAS gave them one hell of a positive review:
"Good things do come in a relatively small packages although this is a nearly 300 lb speaker that is 51 inches high. It uses four new ultra high excursion woofers, two 700 watt amps and ARC 2 digital room compensation to produce incredibly deep, accurate bass flat to 19hz and going as low as 15hz. It also features an advanced beryllium tweeter and midrange driver and provides equally outstanding midrange and treble performance in every aspect.
Detail dynamics, depth and imaging are all excellent.
Sensitivity is 96db, allowing use with even low power triodes and providing, an exceptional sense of life with more powerful amps, AHC forthcoming" page 54 Absolute Sound Editors Choice 2017.
Gee again I wonder if again we will be right championing another really superb product, just like the Ushers and Scaenas, before them.
I guess we must have paid off Anthony Cordesman to say the Personas are great speakers.
Please go stick your head in the sand I guess you won't be able to learn from someone who knows more about sound reproduction then you do.
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No I am trying to shut down yours! You keep inciting a response.
Mr. Cordesman obviously feels that the Personas are a world class product, if I already owned product X that is a different question as to weather or not I would switch to it and we sell Legacy's by the way so I guess again we also believe in what Mr. Cordesman says.
Why don't we just throw it out to the Forum members I don't know what part of the country you are in but if you are on the East Coast, why doesn't some of the Forum readers come and hear your system and come and hear ours and then post their responses.
I am more than willing to bet anyone who comes to our shop and listens to our Persona setup is going to be blown away by them and the sound we are getting, I wonder if under that same criteria whose system will they would prefer.
As per you your obnoxious behavior means probably you can't be taught anything.
As per experience, unless you work in the audio business, it would be impossible for you to have the experience of someone who does this full time for a Living. Dave has been in the business for 27 years, being the top salesman for Sound by Singer as well as Innovative, and he like myself owned Wilsons, as well as selling and setting up hundreds of different systems in that 27 year spread, and just to be clear, I am not saying the Personas or any other speaker is better than a Wilson, I am saying as I have said in every post this is a world class product that deserves consideration in and above its price point, it is for the listener to decide what product is the right product for them.
You won't have to wait too long the Absolute Sounds issue with the Personas is coming out soon.
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Please Grpu just stop retorting, the only reason I keep on posting is to defend my position, in the face of your continued attacks, and to clairfy what I said, and for the record I agree this is a Wilson thread.
I am happy to move on are you? Please don't type anything, just lets get this thread back on track and assist Cupracer with his setup if he needs any additional guidance on how to setup and voice his Wilsons and what to do if he has any serious bass nodes and room loading issues. |
Sure but what if your dad was George the Animal Steele?
All kidding aside we all need to tone down the rhetoric no one here needs to be the self appointed guardian of good taste, and people should stop attacking other people that post.
The only true troll I have truly found on this site is the luantic Monitor audio guy on one of the other Wilson polls with his Tru Sound bull puckey.
If he has some real propreitary new audio magic trick then patent it and then sell it, when I hear such ridiculous claims and all else is boat anchors makes me cringe.
Monitor makes good speakers, I think the Platinium product did get a bit overlooked, but they are very fine speakers, so are Wilson, Magico, Focal, Kharma, B&W, KEF, Vandersteeen etc, almost any suitable well designed high end audio product, will offer a fantastic sound, it is up to the listener to determine which product they feel is the best for their tastes, needs, budgets etc.
As I said in other posts, the store I champion and work with and occasionaly at, Audio Doctor sells many different brands of speakers, because people like different things, while there are other dealers who "sell" other brands of speakers but in reality are loyal to only one and push that brand with slavish devotion, our approach is that one brand or line of products will rarely satisfy all.
My only issue with some of these threads and posters is their slavish devotion to a brand, I think of all of these products as tools, and if I can find a better tool I am more then willing to replace brand X with brand Y.
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Cupracer good for you, your sentiment on supporting a good dealer is admirable as well as being smart with a purchase of this magnitude.
Innovative is in New York city they are one of Wilsons top dealers which is why I thought it was a little odd that you didn't visit them as well as Lyric in White plains.
I am glad to see this thread is back on the right footings, I personally don't like to be attacked or have my friend attacked when his track record for finding outstanding products is more than solid, which forced a tit for tat back and forth with Grpu, which then required in my mind to illustrate the how and why Dave works. His philosophy is all about seeking out the new and sometimes better products, which is why his inventory and display products change.
We all need to have an open mind and if a person is suggesting someone try out or check out a product you should consider, that in many times, in these forums, the poster and the commentator are in entirely different parts of the country and therefore, there is no personal or monnetary gain, just one person making a suggestion that the other person wasn't considering.
I hope you enjoy your Sashas, good luck with them.
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