Hi Giggsy,
what you say relates to a Lyra Dorian I used, DEFINATLY on the shorter side.
Then I had it re-tipped (J. Allaerts) and it was much closer to that 9.2 - 9.5 mm measure.
I can see, that with a difference of ~ 1 - 1.5 mm it could sound better if set-up appropriately.
Thank you for sharing this,
Axel |
Hi Mike,
following a quote from the SME site:
>>> Intended to be compatible dimensionally with earlier SME models, the 'V' is a rigidly-pivoted tonearm with a 233.15mm stylus-to-pivot distance, and a 23.6350 offset angle. <<<
As you, I'm momentarily 'lost' and can't find the source of the 5/8" measurement, but am very certain that's what it was.
It might be fine to have the other, stylus-to-pivot distance up top.
Source:http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Series-V-1341.shtml
on SME web site.
If I dig up the other reference I'll let you know. I think it was on one of the many sites discussing alignments.
Greetings,
Axel
|
Mike,
following another info:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1234544166
It mentions 9.2 - 9.5 for 'most carts, but it aught to be measured to make quite certain of the individual case.
NOTE: This DOES not take care of the actually assumed measurement by SME which I gave you in the previous reply.
Axel |
Ok Giggsy, you see so things can get mixed up.
Now in your 8mm case, Jonathan, and as you know he's the Lyra main man, mentioned the Clavis of yours is rather old, by design and otherwise not been sold anymore for some years by now. It being the pre-dresser of the then early Helicon, (itself changed at least once by now, my edit)
By this he explained why it was so 'otherwise' than their newer cart, and i should say a NO-NO for a fixed arm type. I hope this makes some sense. (I better ask this more often lately...)
Axel |
Hallo,
Herr Tonarm you suggested to do this SME stuff on a different thread, and I concurred.
So now you better send yeah old SME enquiries this here way. I agree that Dougdeacon's contribution is rather over here in the right place.
I also happen to agree with him, however it did not get to the point asked on this here thread --- will a DIFFERENT, other then SME stock alignment (Baerwald A, SME flovour) be of known BENEFIT.
If we concur it's not, we can close the subject and don't waste money on aftermarket protractors for SME arms, 'cause it's a waist of money, right?
So lets see if we find somebody that has change the alignment to other then stock SME, and can truly rave about the major improvement derived.
Let's make nails with heads and don't chew up the old mathematics and theories only, what say you?
Axel |
Hello Jarr,
sorry, 3/8" = 9.52 mm must've been a typo! Thank you for that correction.
That point was actually raised by some Lyra owner(older Lyra type I guess) quoting 8mm for screw hole to stylus distance. I guess he had measured it, but only he knows (you may check with him back in the thread)
Great to know, that Lyra is spot on 3/8", and thank you for making that clear (straight from the horses mouth, so to speak)
>>> unless the re-tip involves rather violent measures (grin). <<<
It was NOT a Lyra re-tip, you might have missed that part or it was not mentioned. In fact the boron cantilever was 'yanked' out of the alu-tube, so it was violent when it got damaged. The replacement was a Fritz Gyger Special with boron cantilever.
>>> In any case, Axelwahl, your story doesn't (yet) make sense to me. <<<
I hope THIS makes more sense to you now. I had the opportunity to compare the re-tipped item to an original stock item and it was CLEARLY longer then the stock one --- BUT as I said nothing to do with your re-tipping service. There was no interest in a Lyra re-tip, rather a new sale as it came to the same cost as a new one, I recall. The stylus was not worn when it broke. It was quite new in fact (not done by me I might add)
I read the rest of what you say, and I agree. However, I didn't just want to throw this item away, so I had it done by someone that was prepared to re-tip it. So it goes at times...
This re-tipped Lyra sounds VERY good, so it was worth while to do in this specific case.
Greetings,
Axel |
now what?
Mjglo measures, and Giggsy confirms?!
Are you the same?
Or are we having a crossed wire?
This is important to know...
Axel |
Jonathan :-)
you can cheer me up, thank you for your kind words.
If I talked about a difference, it is a small difference. The cart would not work properly if it was major --- but lo and behold MOST easily noticed when you swap a cart in an SME arm (fixed hole position and all). So I would have to guess and say, it was a ~ 0.5 mm variation. Looking at the two easily notice by a trained eye.
Now look at your quoted +/- 0.3 mm tollerance that takes care of a 0.6 mm variation alone (worst case), now I guess I'm making even MORE sense.
Good talking to you,
Axel |
Hi Jonathan,
still at it I see. Me, I'm just done with breakfast :-)
Your points made about the Graham are very good!
Pity I don't have one --- the thread is after all about the SME-V which is what I use.
But still a very good point, particularly once we start accepting that 0.01 mm are of any major? import.
Me, I'm not yet convinced, it would relinquish all 'fixed' stylus-pivot measurement arms to the scrap-heap, not so?
And as regards to the Graham, this alignment facility (marvellous as it seem) comes with additional connection points and might just undo what was gained by some hyper-accurate alignment.
I'm surmising, as I have not had an opportunity to compare a well 'stock' set-up SME V with a e.g. Phantom.
Also SME V's have not (to the very best of my knowledge) gone through that multitude of changes as did the Grahams. One sign of a good initial design is that it LASTS. Do you agree, or am I sounding too conservative here?
Greetings,
Axel |
Holy momma,
I declare, that's gotta give Jonathan some'm to say, and then some!
He is quoting +/- 0.3 mm from 9.52 mid-point (the IEC, hm... Gold-Standard as we have it right now) - and now this here situation.
10.5 mm! You can only make this yet more by adding VTF!
So this 10.5 mm is for sure from centre screw-hole (across the two hole-centres and midpoint between them) to the stylus tip, are we quite sure there?
So now what's next?
(I hope not turning in a version of Dynasty like my other thread :-)
Axel |
Hi all,
seems that thread got exhausted quite quickly. And what I take from it:
There is NO benefit with non-stock alignment.
Jolly good to know, it will save me some bucks spending on any of these aftermarket protractors.
Thank you for sharing,
Axel |
Hi Jonathan,
GREAT post, thank you!
Hell, and I just had though my thread's gone stone dead.
You mention the rubber damper, I guess it's what some older folks call the 'gummi' right?
If that is so, than there is that other item, 'Spanndraht' tension wire? , which more than anything else seems to contribute to compliance, if you can confirm this.
Still with the damping, there is as always yet more. I think of Ortofon's 'mixed bag of gummi, gold and what not flux-damping rings --- and the more obvious flux-damping coils on Dynavectors V flux bracket, yes?
Now, why I ask this is related to the effect(s) of these. Your Dorian, is very 'open' and with exemplary channel balance -- BUT it goes 'dilly' past 10kHz and needs some good old down-loading i.e. to 'clamp it down' before it goes screaming at you. No fux damping here by design choise, yes?
So, no way of running this cart into 47k i.e. un-loaded.
Now we look at the other two mentioned, using flux-damping, they perform jolly nicely into 47k.
And here's the kicker, a statement by some guru: "The better the cart, the less loading it needs." That so?
Would be nice to get your take on this, plus to correct some possible misconceptions on my side. No harm done, promised.
Greetings,
Axel |
Hallo Frank,
you say:
>>> What hasn't been addressed is the question whether different stylus profiles cause a difference in the magnitude and in the makeup(even/odd order harmonics) of those distortions. <<<
It is ECAXTLY because of this question, that I'd started the thread: "Influence of stylus shapes on distortion"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1241351600&openusid&zzAxelwahl&4&&
It has as background the notion, that even such 'old' stylus shapes like 'round' or 'elliptical' have still their following. They seem to trade a little less detail, for less 'unpleasant' if not truly LESS distortion.
To clear up this often held misunderstanding once more :
"Other than at the two null-points (where ever they are, due to Baerwald A, B, Stevenson, YOUR OWN flavour!, etc.) there is always DISTORTION. This can be seen on the various 'arc/distortion' graphs produced by these alignments.
Frank, I think your question about the HARMONICS related to these inevitable distortion is where such inquiry aught to be headed.
If a round or elliptical shape will produce more even-order, less odd-order harmonics AND we can somehow prove that, it will be of GREAT help and inside, I think.
Thank you, for your most valuable input --- but shouldnt we move this over to the dedicated thread as pointed out above?
Greetings,
Axel |
