Will computer to DAC replace transports and cdp's?


From my limited reading it seems that a cd burned to a hard drive will be a bit for bit copy because of the software programs used to rip music files. A transport has to get it right the first time and feed the info to a dac. Wavelength audio has some interesting articles about computer based systems and have made a strong statement that a transport will never be able to compete with a hard drive>dac combo.

Anybody care to share their thoughts?
kublakhan

Showing 10 responses by jax2

No doubt about it. I very rarely use my transport anymore. Absolutely cannot tell the difference between my transport and the same music through the same DAC as a WAV or Apple Lossless, through my HD. Nothing like having your entire music library at your fingertips with only the push of a few buttons. I have the same concerns as Grant about downloading, not just with regards to the death of the "album", but also if compression and mediocrity in recording and digitizing the music becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Marco
I've been on a Mac platform since '97. The only problems I've ever had were in various versions of the largely extinct OS9. OSX has run flawlessly and effortlessly an rarely requires any serious attention. On the other hand, I do have friends whose experience in upgrading various versions of OSX have been rather frustrating, like Onhwy61. I protect my music library in several ways. First, and most important for me is to store me entire music library on a dedicated, external hard drive. None of my music library is on my main computer. I have a copy on a second hard drive...or rather on a friend's second hard drive, and I've also strated to back up the entire library to DVD's in case of a double failure. I've just recently sold off a group of CD's that I listened to less often, or had duplicates of. For some reason I have a hard time selling off the ones I like most. I think it 's the pack rat in me though. Regarding organizing play lists like albums - I think Grant's concern was around the trend of downloading music a few songs at a time via the Internet. When you buy an 'album' on the Internet (via iTunes for instance), you have the option of purchasing the entire album, or as many songs as you like, or even just one single song. If you look at Apple's current home page there is a counter running currently with the number of song's sold that is increasing as almost as fast as our National debt it seems. For the moment (perhaps not for very much longer), you can see their countdown to the billionth song sold here. Sadly, all this music being purchased is compressed.

Marco
you're description of storing your music on a separate HD, and then yet another copy on another HD is exactly what keeps me away. That's too much damn work for someone who simply wants to listen to music.

The big hurdle is ripping your exisiting collection one at a time. If you can do that while doing another task, or watching a movie...listening to music, etc. it is really not that much effort, but indeed it takes time. Once you've done that everything else is a piece of cake. Each time you acquire a CD you take the three minutes it takes to rip it to the collecition. Copying a hard drive is a no-brainer. Drag-and-drop old hard drive onto the new hard drive and walk away. I copied a 250gb drive and it took about 2.5 hours from my laptop. I spent all of two minutes actually making the copy.

Now burning the library to DVD's is probably a bit overboard, and certainly does take time, you're quite right there if that's what you were referring to. It's probably not necessary, but I guess I like the piece of mind it gives me. The likelihood of two hard drives failing simultaneously has to be infinitesimally small.

I'm not sure what the Palm Pilot software interface is like...I believe it is freeware that is downloadable, or else it is very cheap from when I recall looking into it. There is a link on the Wavelength website. It requires that you have a PalmPilot that is Bluetooth enabled (not all are), as well as a laptop with Bluetooth. Your laptop, short USB cord, interface device, and cable (toslink or S/PDIF) all can stay with your system (on the other side of the room). You have your PalmPilot on the other side of the room which would control your music program. So it goes back to the question as to just how complete is the Palm software to control the computer...what do you have access to? With the AE or the MUCH more expensive Offramp you would have your laptop on the other side of the room and the wireless device plugged in near your system and wired to the DAC. This way you would have complete control of your library from your laptop. I would not run a USB cord across the room. USB has a limit of 6 feet I believe. If you need to go further you'll need some kind of repeater device every 6 feet (not very attractive or convenient for sure - no idea how that may effect the audio feed).

Marco
Will you describe the hardware and wire chain of your system starting from your computer (PC or MAC).

Computer via USB (?) > ? > ? > ?

Computer via USB > Waveterminal U24 (this converts the USB feed to S/PDIF or to Toslink if you prefer)>DAC>Preamp>Amp>Speakers>Ears>Brain>Happy Button

Marco
The possibly confusing interface Grant, may be coming off the computer. You can have one of three different solutions basically:

1. A USB DAC like the Apogee that takes the feed directly from your computer's USB outlet, converts the signal to something the DAC can understand, and spits out an analogue signal.

2. A USB interface device like my Waveterminal U24 which simply converts the USB signal to either Toslink (optical) or S/PDIF, and which still requires you output that signal to a separate DAC or digital-in on a select few one-box players.

3. A wireless device like the Airport Express, which can act either as a rather poor DAC and feed directly into an amp, or as a convertor device providing, in the case of the AE, an optical digital feed for a separate DAC.

It looks like the Offramp you suggested falls under category one, since it is a USB DAC essentially.

Drubin - thanks for the correction on the maximum USB length. Sorry for the misinformation.

Marco
Is the Offramp also a DAC? Looks to me like just a converter, since its output is a coax cable.

I was just going by what Grant wrote earlier in categorizing it that way:

02-12-06: Tvad
That's correct. The OffRamp is a DAC.

...but on looking at their site, it appears that the $950 device is just a converter as you said. My god, what could it have in it that makes it cost that much? The U24 I use also has an excellent clocking device in it from all reports. It can also be used as a DAC, but I have not tried that out. I use it simply as a converter. I've been delighted with the results using it, and the $200 price tag (I guess it was $300 when first released) was a bit easier to take a risk on. I'm told they're no longer making them, but they seem to be widely available on websites still...perhaps leftovers or just not updated sites(?).

Marco
One other point about archiving, or backup: Creating a WAV or lossless file of a CD can act as a backup in case the CD is ever lost or damaged. You can easily burn a new CD from the WAV or Lossless file. In addition I've read a few reports that some CD media is more prone to eventual 'failure' than others. I'm not sure if these reports were limited to CD-R(W)'s or if they included manufactured CD's. Anyone have more info on that subject?

Marco
I don't believe it.

Believe it, or not. It's my experience as well. But I wonder if he meant that he was using a computer CD player? What I believe he may have meant, and correct me if I'm wrong Pardales, was comparing the music from CEC transport + Dodson combo, to the same music stored on a Hard Drive in WAV or lossless format going via USB, clocked and converted by the Waveterminal, and then on to the same Dodson DAC to be reclocked. It has been my experience with my own DAC and Transport (both Muse) that I cannot tell the difference from a lossless hard-drive version vs my transport. Never bothered trying the transport in the computer.

Marco
I just want all you guys to know that you're scaring the heck out of me. I don't understand ninety percent of what you're talking about; I can barely load my ipod.

I'm no techno geek either, but have a pretty good grasp on how it all works. Maybe I could put it into terms that are easier to understand. Anyone with a more in-depth understanding can feel free to correct my metaphor:

Think of iTunes, the program itself, as the central office in the big building that is your internal hard drive. This particular office has a fairly narrow, singular task; to keep track of all the music files. In the office, for the sake of simplicity, is a big address book, an underpaid devoted employee (probably from India), and a telephone. The job of this office is to store the music, given, the resources/space made available to it, and to keep track of exactly where it has stored that music. No music (the big files) is necessarily kept in the office itself, though they do have a back room they can use (the iTunes music folder)...only the address of where the music was stored, and what that music actually is (much smaller files). So you phone up the itunes receptionist, and let him know you have some new music you want to store. The receptionist asks where you want to store it, and you say in the external hard drive that happens to be connected at that time to your computer via USB, for instance. "I'll get right on that," responds the receptionist, "how would you like me to store that?" In the preferences you should have selected the appropriate dropdown that tells the office just what format to store the information in (ie compressed formats like mp3 or uncompressed like .wav or Apple Lossless). So the office goes about taking the music you give it, converts it into the format you've assigned, tagging it with the information available to the office at the time (with an Internet link the receptionist can phone in and get all the title and track information from most CD's, without an Internet connection you will have to tell the office exactly what those are, which is a time-consuming PITA), and stores it, NOT in the office in this case (though that back room is always available), but off in the external hard drive you told it to. It records in its huge address book (you may call this the iTunes Library), all the pertinent information about where it put that music, and what that music is. Next day you have some more music for the office to file, but you don't have your USB hard drive plugged in. You insert a CD with music (phone up the receptionist again)and say, "here's some more music I want stored, but since I don't have my hard drive I'd like you to put this stuff somewhere else in the building (that is your internal hard drive), or perhaps you have another hard drive and you tell it to put it there. "Got it, " comes the response, and iTunes converts the music again, records the information in the big address book (library), including that is stored in this other location, as well as what tags it should look for when it searches there, and Viola, more music is stored. When you phone in the office (iTunes) to ask it to play back the music you stored, the receptionist frantically flips through his highly organized address book for that Yani CD you asked for. Ah, Yani's Greatest Hits (there's an oxymoron) should be in hard drive "A" and was tagged uniquely by iTunes with a big red sticker that says "01101101000010101000011010010". So iTunes goes looking for that external drive (if it is not plugged in iTunes will tell you it cannot find the illusive Yani CD, and ask if you would point it out yourself since you didn't plug the friggen hard drive in). If, on the other hand, it finds that hard drive, it looks for the big red sticker with the "01101101000010101000011010010" on it, finds it, and delivers the goods. As you can see, you can store music on any number of hard drives and other storage devices. iTunes (the program) will keep track of as many as you choose and will continue to find the music for you as long as the device the music is on is actually plugged in (available). You can also, of course, store the music on your internal hard drive...there's even a devoted folder (that back room in the office I mentioned) in the iTunes office in case you actually want to store your music in the office itself (this is the default folder which iTunes will use if either you have not asked it to store the music elsewhere, OR if you've asked it to store music on a device that is not connected to the computer). The real job of iTunes is just in keeping track of where you tell it to put the actual music (it does this by attaching informational tags to the files), and finding it again when you ask for it. I believe, in techno-geek terms, it is what is known as a database. So using your iTunes Preferences is where you get the control over exactly where the music is stored, and in what format (under "Advanced").

Hope that helps.

Marco
Glad to be of help Tom. I'm a visual person (by profession too), so I also tend to understand things better when they are explained in some terms I can acutally visualize. I've found in teaching that really helps many folks understand.

My humble opinion is that this is just the beginning of (some might say "the end") computer based audio. You will be much better off learning early rather than wait. The storage software and data management may evolve, but I don't think the file formats will change all that much when it comes to the lossless variety. Compression schemes may change. But I don't think you're at much of a risk of facing a "Betamax Scenario" any time soon.

Marco