Why not the piano as a reference for bass


I see a lot of commentary/reviews on a systems bass response that all seem to hinge on the 41 hz double bass and such range.  At 27.5 the A0 note on a piano seems a better point to judge.  Lots of piano in normal music vs say an organ note.  I know when I feel that deep chord played it is one of things I enjoy about listening the most!  Was listening to Wish you were here live and the piano was sublime.

So is it more of how much musical energy is perceived in the 40 hz range or what that makes this more of a reproduction benchmark?

I welcome your input!

New Joe Bonamassa out BTW!

guscreek

Showing 4 responses by timstella

I am a professional pianist/ organist, and was an agent for Bosendorfer piano many years ago. I use the 97 key Imperial at my church, and have my favorite Bosendorfer 7 foot, 4 inch model at home. The lowest notes on the Imperial contain so little fundamental frequency energy, that even the most skilled piano technicians are very challenged to tune those pitches properly! The reason for the extra nine notes was for scaling and tone. Strings close to the rim do not resonate as well because the soundboard best resonates in the middle area. This is true of any vibrating membrane on any musical instrument! On the Imperial Grand, now the string of the lowest A on a regular piano crosses almost down the middle of the soundboard, creating its beautiful singing quality with almost organ like sustain! On a Steinway, one can achieve power, but with much quicker attenuation than the Bosendorfer, because the string is much closer to the rim. BUT, there still is no comparison to an organ pipe as a bass reference because of the sheer physics of the pipe itself, creating the true fundamental bass frequency! So yes, the piano is a great instrument for testing speaker accuracy, but for a variety of other reasons, not for bass! And no, I’ve never heard a speaker sound like a live Bosendorfer, but the closer they can get is a great evaluation tool for quality audio reproduction. 

With all due respect to billstevenson, there have been so many attempts for decades to come up with a substitute for the acoustic piano that doesn’t need tuning, etc., and Yamaha has been at the forefront with their hybrid, Clavinova, and other models. Yes, they have made improvements in the sampled piano, but it is still a canned sound, not an acoustic instrument. As in a sampled electronic pipe organ, despite the increased resolution, etc., there is still no way to recreate the multiplicity of so many sound sources, no matter how many audio channels and samples are used to create the random complexity of the acoustic instrument. A professional musician can tell you that you can take the highest quality string samples for instance, and that in a simple example may sound good, as soon as you layer more and more, the result homogenizes and sounds less convincing. But if for example, you keep adding more acoustic string instruments, the sound gets more and more complex, and is easily recognized as far superior to the canned samples. It has to do with the infinite number of variables in individual bowings, vibratos, intonation, and many other factors. Also, we are trying to convert this enormous complexity into an electronic signal, reproduced by audio transducers. The fact is that we’re conditioned to believe that the sample is the real deal in live performance, Broadway shows, and recordings. I maintain that I can take a child and sit them in front of a real cello, and there will be no question of how they will respond to the physical affect of that instrument as opposed to a recorded sample. 

I privately messaged Bill Stevenson, respecting his opinion on the latest Clavinova. 
All I can say is please let me know when you get to see a Clavinova at any one of the best concert halls in the world?? I will confidently say NOT IN MY LIFETIME!! Also, remember that yes, a synth can be programmed aimed to make subsonic frequencies, but what transducers can accurately reproduce them?? A 32 foot organ pipe will, even if you don’t hear the 16hz, your body will definitely feel it!! 
Wonderful discussion, but with many misunderstandings about the actual physics of the lowest frequencies. 

Dear Bill, yes, I’ve conducted productions in my career at the Kravis, it is a very nice arts center. I should have been more specific in saying for a concert pianist in recital or concerto. That you won’t see. And trust me, no serious classical pianist uses a Clavinova to practice. I’m sorry the discussion has gotten off its original topic. The difference is that between a very good sampled piano keyboard and a concert grand. Please enjoy yours! Best, Tim