Also I suppose the 4 driver approach would enable higher volumes with less distortion/breakup, which would be beneficial to pro applications in particular where good sound at high volume is needed in larger rooms using not many watts. Those watts would probably be SS state though.
Gotta keep in mind that pro audio requirements are different than home audio. I'm sure the speakers would sound at least OK in smaller quarters aat most volumes one would attempt, but the strength of the design would seem to be more in the pro applications as described. |
"Anyway, thats neither here nor there. Probably not the best choice of words to indicate that the idea of time coherency by design is exceedingly rare. To the best of my knowledge, only Vandersteen and Thiel on a consistent basis anymore."
Also OHM Walsh. |
"Perhaps some evidence to support those claims might be appropriate? "
Perhaps.
The OHMs seem to work and sound as claimed as best I can tell. I see no evidence to indicate false advertising or other less than honest business practices.
Also I am sure most OHM customers don't care about technical details. Listening is all the proof that really matters.
Again, if you have questions regarding the technology, best to address them to the man who knows the answers, John Strohbeen. I'm always interested to hear what John says. I find it almost always understated but accurate.
|
"Again, I'm not the one making the claims"
No, but you are questioning them. All vendors make claims. If you have questions, you should ask and get the answers.
I believe the claims to be true based on what I know of the design and what I hear. But that does not prove anything especially to a skeptic now does it? |
"Mapman, I'm not sure that Ohm's current non-bending wave non-Walsh drivers qualify."
I guess you'd have to take that up with John Strohbeen to know for sure. |
"Another thing that makes the Ohm speakers unique (then and now) is that they are almost a 1-way speaker. The CLS driver handles frequencies from the bass through about 10kHz, at which time they (finally) hand off to a (metal) dome tweeter. In doing so, they remain completely free of all known deleterious effects of crossovers usually located in the all-important midrange. Coherence is the natural by-product of one driver doing most of the talking - or singing as it were. So are phase coherence and time alignment."
This quote from a six moons review of one of the OHM Walsh designs pretty much states the case for the OHM CLS driver achieving a high degree of coherency in that a single driver handles all but the uppermost frequencies. I think this is an established fact regarding the OHM CLSs in that it has been reported in many reviews over the years and never brought into question or challenged at least in any reputable publication I know of. |
OK, back on topic, German Physiks has a model that attempts to achieve full range with the DDD driver by horn loading it called the Unicorn.
Has anybody ever heard these? I always found a horn loaded Walsh driver to be a quite unique concept. |
|
"he's entitled to his opinion"
Yes, opinions are opinions but for any somewhat credible source to indicate that $1000 low end speakers from one line can match $21000 lower end models from another and higher end models selling for only a few thousand more outperform the $21000 speakers using a similar technology in every way is an eye opener that at least has to make one take notice. |
He apparently has ears and has listened to a lot of stuff.
The same credentials as most of us I would say. |
He also indicates he is "a longtime proponent and user of Walsh speaker technology".
And he indicates he writes a syndicated consumer electronics column. So he is apparently a (gasp) journalist!
So much for credibility? |
"German Physics is a legitimate and highly credible manufacturer who is unlikely to market a product that is utterly without merit."
I would not say that. The $1000 speakers are quite good (similar to design to the Walshes in my system but smaller) and have garnered a nice following. If teh GPs sound as good, then that has merit. They are just 20X as expensive, so not much merit there.
Stthomas, I can assure you that I do more than just say what I read. I read to help learn. I do not discredit anyone or anything without basis. I tend to give most the benefit of the doubt that they have some information of value to share until I determine otherwise.
Best to keep an open mind in general! |
BTW, I was quite disappointed to read Mr. Lindich's findings regarding the GP Uncorns in that I am a big fan of Walsh technology and I do believe horns have the potential to break certain common performance barriers as well, so my expectations for a design using both in a single driver full range design were quite high.
That's why I'm wondering if anybody on this thread can offer any insight to how the Unicorns sound. I've never heard them but am intimately familiar with the OHMs. No other speaker has lured me away from them during 30 years of ownership of various models. The GPs are one that I would expect could (if I could afford them) and the application of the horn with teh Walsh is certainly quite unique at a minimum.
A poor setup at a show is always suspect. The Unicorns apply equalization to the bass as well, so who's to say this was set to match Mr. Lindich's preferences. |
One other thing that struck me is that despite being horn loaded, the Unicorn is still only 87 db or so efficient, according to the specs I found. A horn loaded speaker that is still that inefficient is certainly a unique beast as well. |
Yes horns and omni drivers are a unique combo for sure.
Most GP designs appear to limit the coverage of the DDD driver to the upper frequencies where Walsh drivers operate in a mostly wave bending manner, as I understand it. This is supplemented by more traditional dynamic drivers for the low end.
The Unicorn apparently trys to extend the range of the DDD lower where it like all Walshes I believe operate more pistonically in producing bass, but that does not appear to be the strength of the DDD. The horn loading and equalization applied in the Unicorn to the DDD bass region output appears to compensate for that. |
"Again the DDD doesn't have the mechanical cross-overs that the original Walsh driver had. Of course the catch is; they're pretty darn expensive."
no, but with teh exception of the Unicorn, it is not full range and supplemental drivers with electronic crossover are used.
I suspect the "mechanical crossover" of the original Walsh behaves better from a coherency perspective in that crossovers tend to work against coherency in general it seems.
DDD covers higher and mid frequencies and crosses over toward the low end of the audio spectrum. OHM CLS covers lower and mid frequencies and crosses over higher (about 10khz I believe). Most, particularly as they age into their 40s or so, cannot hear above 14 khz or so, so that is the argument for the CLS approach.
All Walsh drivers operate via wave bending at higher frequencies and transition gradually to more pistonic motion to produce lower frequencies. That would indicate DDD produces more frequencies using wave bending than OHM and OHM more using pistonic motion to cover bass, however my understanding is that both apply the Walsh driver principle however differently in these ways. That is how it has been explained to me.
So we all can chose our preferred designs and sounds. OHMs in general will cost a lot less than GP however, that much seems certain. |
macro,
You're starting to sound a bit like a broken record and a bit "shouty" like some horns as well.
Also, everyone knows the Borg have no need for speakers or acoustics in general, much less horns to communicate their musical information patterns. So Borg like, maybe, but not Borg for sure. |
"Mapman, the original Walsh Drivers had 2 such mechanical cross-overs. I suspect that there was some cross-over in the lower than the extreme upper frequencies as well."
That is correct the original OHM Walsh drivers used three distinct sections for low, mid, and high end that resulted in two physical equivalents of a "crossover" between sections, though I would not equate these "physical crossovers" to electronic ones in regards to how they behave, particularly in regards to coherence.
"The DDD doesn't have any such mechanical cross-overs"
That is correct also, though an external electronic crossover and non walsh bass driver is used for full range in most GPs.
In the case of the OHM CLS, the Walsh driver, crossover, and tweeter are all considered part of the full range "CLS" driver.
In either GP or OHM case, for full range, with exception of the GP Unicorn, two drivers and a crossover are used. |
One last point on the horn loaded Walsh driver used in the German Physiks Unicorn.
The increasingly pistonic operation of the DDD Walsh driver towards the lower end of the sound spectrum is what would produce the pressurization at the mouth needed to enable a horn to be used with a Walsh driver. The horn would not be exposed to sound pressure emitted orthogonally via wave bending in the Walsh driver, so I am pretty sure wave bending alone could not work with a traditional horn design. |
Ok, enough beating a dead unicorn.
Ha Ha Ha! Dead unicorn, a horse with a horn, get it? |
"but an upgrade for most people in terms of sound."
In what way and based on what?
You are not just saying that because it uses a horn, are you? |
Its an interesting horn design, but of course it is essentially only one driver to be built into a full range speaker system. Like most things, the results would depend on how well the whole end package is executed and the only way to know if it were truly an upgrade in the end would be to try a system that uses it and compare. Assuming 98db efficiency and a flat response along the lines indicated by the chart showing measured response of the custom built design in the reference provided, those are a good set of initial indicators, but of course do not assure anything.
I'm assuming the multi-driver design of this horn helps achieve higher efficiency? Other than that, I am not sure what the advantage of horn loading 4 midrange drivers rather than one would be? I am not a fan in general of systems that use multiple drivers to cover the same part of the frequency spectrum because I believe it is harder to do that well and costs are driven up.
An interesting and somewhat different design nonetheless and one that has apparently been built into some affordable end user systems, so that is good. |
macro,
If I were you, I would temper my unwavering faith and passion with some more objectivity up front.
Objectivity will help get the facts people need to make decisions out on the table. Unwavering faith and passion alone might be persuasive to some, but the reality may come as a shock later.
Just my opinion.... |
" Ironically enough, part of my objection to horns are what I perceive to be their total poor cost to performance ratio."
That is certainly true of some of the horns I have heard, especially the pure full range horn designs as opposed to the hybrids.
I would seriously consider testing the waters with something along the lines of a Klipsch La Scala, if I had the room, but I do not. Practically, a hybrid like a Heresy or Cornwall is about as large as I could possibly go.
Also, if I only ran one pair of speakers, the odds on me moving solely to horns would be small in that it will take a lot of tweaking and work under the best circumstances to get any other speakers to the point of being able to replace my OHM 5s, if even possible.
Smaller horns with some WAF could go into my wifes sunroom, but that is the only likely fit I see currently with my current system.
For many, a switch to horns could well trigger a total system revamp in that amps that sound good with high efficiency speakers are often different from those that work well with more common fare these days.
Rather than that, I would suggest a separate system perhaps powered by a suitable low power tube amp for many first dips into horn waters. I might do something like this as a separate bedroom system perhaps sometime in that I am interested in seeing how far the boundaries can be pushed with different technologies and approaches, and horns are unique enough in their strengths and weaknesses to warrant such exploration there. Also, I have already tested the waters on most other speaker designs, so horns are one of the more interesting candidates left.
BTW I started a thread a couple years back that is still around requesting info on "good cheap horns". Any new contributions to that thread would still be greatly appreciated. |
" the only place that I think I might consider horns, are out side on my deck"
Wow! From there, not much further to get into your house despite your pledge to contrary as well. Watch out! Macrojack must be getting to you! |
Unsound,
I thought I remember you saying something along the line that you would never have horns in your house or something to that effect. I could be wrong.
Assuming so, I'd say the deck does not count as IN your house, but once they get that close, who's to say what's next?
FWIW I have Realistic Minimus 7s on my deck. These are wall mounted and just out of reach of direct exposure to the elements. They also run off my main system. Horns would definitely not fit there for me! |
"do you not want to hear every possible tiddly pom and nuance of every Instrument and vocals to die for when you play your music"
Yes.
Also I find few recordings so bad they are not listenable. In fact, when things are going well on my system, I find most tracks to have something appealing enough to offer to make it worth a listen. When not, then I find myself discounting a lot of recordings that in fact should be quite enjoyable if not still far from perfect. |
"The Better any system get's to the truth, is the less you will experience these so called un-listenable tracks... "
I agree. I suspect this may be the most useful metric regarding system quality of all. |
"What has been interesting about this is that I have found recordings that I **thought** were bad, but in time were found to have so much energy that a bad system couldn't play it right! "
I have found this out in recent years as well and suspect this is a common malady for many.
I find a lot of modern "loudness wars" recordings and remasters fall into this category. They have a lot of "energy" as you say which exacerbates their inherent limitations as well when the playback system just cannot handle it.
This is where I have found the Class D amps I am using currently to be a godsend with my less efficient speakers that I am fond of otherwise.
Similarly, good higher efficiency speakers with perhaps fewer quality watts driving them are the other solution scenario I believe. |
"Mapman, ironically, I think "modern"loudness wars" recordings" are designed towards the low end of audio playback."
Yes that is true. Ironically, they can also be harder to play back accurately, for better or for worse, on home systems due to the higher overall "energy content" as Atmasphere accurately described it. |
Darn, just did my once a year NYC jaunt the other week! I would have liked to heard these. Maybe next year. |
Gotta give macro a lot of credit for starting a very active thread though. Lots of posts over the last month or so but surprisingly mostly from just a handful of willing participants. Also, I'd like to see more info from other horn product gurus, makers and affectionados to add a bit more variety.
For example, if I were interested in testing the waters with something not too expensive at first, like a Klipsch Heresy III, what other designs should I be considering for similar application and why in that price range? |
"Unfortunately Macro views dissension as being hostile and reacts in that manner... "
Ah, yes, that would be considered quite "Borg like"!
Lets be glad that Macro does not appear to have the capability to assimilate us against our will!
No horns for you! |
Thanks for the advice.
I'll see what happens this weekend when the auction ends. I can pick up locally and not worry about shipping damage and if the price stays where I think it will, I will be tempted to test the waters perhaps. I'm sure I can find something to do with them. Its fun to experiment and play! I'm lucky I have several rooms wired for sound that I can work with as needed in order to get a good feel for a new pair of speakers. |
'Thirteen pages of very, very little value. "
Well, for me, there is only so much can conclude about how something sounds by discussing it, even if in great technical detail.
You have to hear it. Unfortunately, a web site cannot provide any indication of what the stuff talked about really sounds like. |
Yes, it seems there are two distinctive large camps of horn owners and then all the rest:
1) enthusiasts with custom horns
2) Klipsch owners (many that have also customized these themselves to some extent) |
I've heard some very good sounding horn systems and think I have a good idea of what to expect.
Klipschorns would require a complete re-arranging of my wifes sunroom, but the end result could work, so I have not discounted that.
Cornerhorns are likely the only pure horns that I will ever fit into my home anywhere. Should I be concerned with the 12X12 room dimensions with cornerhorns? That is another concern.
I'm always scanning the market for a local reasonably priced pair of Klipschorns.
WE'll see..... |
Horns have been around a while. I have to believe there are a good number of engineers out there who understand the key principles pretty well.
Now, do a search and try to find experts on Walsh driver theory and construction! The inventor (Lincoln Walsh) died before the first realized implementation, the OHM A, was constructed and as far as I know you can count on one hand the # of expert providers of Walsh driver technology these days!
Ha! My speakers are more complex (albeit also more boring looking) than your speakers!!!
Seriously, if not for Walsh driver technology, my interest in horns would surely increase in that I do not find many conventional designs, including planars, that can do what a Walsh driver can do. |
YEs, Magnepan has a dealer network while OHM/Walsh went factory direct only back in the 90s. I owned Maggies and older OHMs concurrently from 1985-2007. Then I realized that OHM was still around and providing upgrades for their old speakers. I decided to try this and ended up dumping the Maggies and a pair of nice B&Ws as a result.
The Walsh driver is more a different way of looking at how traditional drivers produce and propogate sound and the theory required to deliver optimal results using drivers in this different manner. I've read where in Lincoln Walsh's theory all pistonic drivers operate as Walsh drivers as well, just not very well. There are really only 3 flavors of marketable Walsh driver around today, those used by OHM in their CLS driver configuration, the German Physiks DDD driver, and "TLS" designs produced by a gentleman named Dale Harder which are modeled after the originals produced by OHM years ago, which were reknowned for their SOTA sound quality when working and their fagility which resulted in the original designs not being a viable long term consumer product, despite the stellar results under normal conditions. |
BTW Dale Harder's TLS Walsh speakers can be seen in his posted system here which is also an audiogon "featured" system. |
Anyway, back to the real world (and away from theory)...
There is a pair of Klipsch Heresy HBR speakers up for sale on Ebay by a seller in the next town from me that I might be able to pick up and try for not much. I would try these in my wifes sunroom where the Dynaudio monitors are pictured currently in my system listing.
Questions:
- How much are a pair in good working order and condition worth?
- If I do it, what kind of sound should I expect in comparison to a pair of good Dynaudio monitors? BTW the Dyns are rear ported and bass heavy in that room. Speakers in that room have to stay close to the wall. The Heresys seem like a reasonable design to try there in that they are reputably not bass heavy. |
My room is 12X12 with listening locations out of the typical sweet spot.
This has swayed me away from considering corner horns (Klipschorns mainly) in that room in that speaker locations cannot be tweaked and you generally want to listen from the sweet spot?
Although tucking a pair of big horns into the corners out of the way is the only way big horns would ever make it into my wifes room and even that might be a stretch. |
A question about Klipschorns.
How far do they extend in each direction along the walls away from the corner? |
i have windpw frames 21-22 inches from each corner. is this a problem if khorn is not perfectly flush against the wall
? |
Well, my wife saw my wallpaper on my PC which is a photo of the room with the GOTO horns in them at Capital Audio Fest and says she likes the looks of the big conical plywood horn used CapitalAudioFestPicsWe live in a neighborhhod with Victorian style homes including ours and the Grammophone like look appealed to her. We think alike in this way in that I think that is part of the appeal of horns to me, is that tie to the past. So maybe there is a pair of big honkin yet retro styled horns somewhere in my future? Ya never know.... |
Al, those are some very beautiful horns both from the perspective of how they look and what they represent! |
My observation with Walsh drivers like those in the OHMs is that they excel most on a good system with recordings that have a lot of mid-range energy. The large surface area of the Walsh driver available for conveying midrange compared to most other drivers is the reason I believe.
Big band and large brass ensembles is where this is most evident. I find many Duke Ellington recordings to be absolutely mesmerizing, for example. The power dynamics and brashness of the orchestra just come through in full bloom within a huge soundstage where everything is laid out perfectly for digestion with relatively little or no fatigue even at high volumes. No easy trick, even for horns! |
BTW, still no horns for me.
I did not bid on the nearby Heresy's this past weekend mainly because my Triangle monitors are working out quite nicely in the sunroom at present so I was not motivated to pull the trigger to try something different. |
"There isn't much finished product for sale under $10,000, even used. "
That likely helps account for limited interest.
Why talk about the benefits of something that few can afford to do well? |
Macro,
As Ronald Reagan would have said, "there you go again" drawing unsubstantiated conclusions.
How do you know how people read Audiogon threads?
I can assure you a lot more threads are read than people actively participate in.
And its pretty egocentric to think that if they are not chirping in on your thread that it is Audiogon's fault.
It is a safe bet most likely though that the majority of people out there using horns or any other speaker type are content just enjoying music on them and do not need or care about outside info from Audiogon or any other audio centric site.
For those that do care about horns and their place in niche high end audio world specifically, Audiogon is surely the place to be. But for those just interested in horn speakers in general, there is abundant information out there beyond the small sampling of info referenced here. |
