Exactly, TIM was the same situation. We all heard something wrong then they finally figured out what it was and how to measure it. But this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about differences people hear when there is nothing wrong. We are not talking about what the ear hears. We are talking about how our central nervous systems interpret what the ear is hearing and that is a far more complicated and plastic issue and it seems in this forum modulated by ego. Many of the explanations are being devised by people who have no idea what they are dealing with or talking about with an unfortunately high level of arrogance. What is even more interesting is that the people who are closest to the truth are attacked the hardest.
If people do not want to understand how their brains can trick them and spend their money on worthless garbage that is their prerogative. Do not think this is the search for the truth. It is more or less the re enforcement of mythology.
Geoffkait, Einstein was a "Newbie" when he came up with the theory of relativity. |
I sort of think we are chasing our tails here and Andy you really need to put that stuff down.
Oregonpapa, a new tight belt may slow certain types of motors down fractionally turning some energy to heat so there is a rational for the change in sound. Although I must say we are very bad a discerning slow changes. We are much better with abrupt ones. If capacitors "break in" at all it is withing seconds to a minute of being charged for the first time. That would also be a pretty bad cap as their performance is specified to be within a certain percentage. They may deteriorate over time I have no idea how fast. I'll have to look that up. As I said before the most variable and unpredictable part of any audio "system" is the brain that is listening. Think of a viable reason why something would occur and test for it. In the turntable with a new belt case just check the speed when the belt is new then check it every 24 hours and document the speed change then buy another belt and do it again. One of the most important characteristic of a scientific fact is that it is repeatable.
Prof, I have come to the conclusion that Geoff can not slow down. He is bipolar 1. So don't blame him he is not responsible for his actions/words.
Geoff, yes I agree. Vinyl sounds better but you really have to stop counting the revolutions:) |
Markpop, I am a doctor and I do have a complete computerized audio logic set up. We have to test hearing for certain professionals and thank you. You are quite correct. I meant essentially the same thing using the analogy of a cat meow vs a dog bark. I do know of that test and I wish he had done it on a few audiophiles using high res vs CD res. Vinyl I think most of us could pick up by the back ground noise. |
geoffkait, what in god's name are you talking about? A single experiment can be perfectly valid if done correctly. "Sorry pal" is offensive. Do you really need to be as immature as rodman? All you have to say is that you have faith (The Cure) that "break in" exists for electronics and no mater what you tell me I am going to believe in that. I can live with that and I know for a fact prof can also. Then we can just discount everything else you have to say as a religious moment and be done with it.
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Oregonpapa, that is a mechanical device where that can be expected and I have personally heard this with several but not all cartridges. My Clearaudio Da Vinci was so shrill initially that I had to make a new EQ curve for it and I was mad as a viper but in perhaps about two weeks things started sounding dull so I switched back to my normal curve and everything was wonderful. This was objective because I could compare the sound with my other turntable.
However as far as electronics are concerned they do not break in and anyone who believes they do is deluding themselves. You even have millercarbon comparing them to wine. He is wonderful at composing long posts that say absolutely nothing.
Andy, there are extremely few things that age gracefully. Maybe the occasional Ferrari that has not been driven. Even wine goes bad if you leave it too long.
Rodman, the last thing I am going to do is trust your ears or anyone's ears including mine but if you want to chase your tail deluding yourself into thinking you heard something and piss money away on silly stuff, wonderful. It is still a free country and you are not hurting anyone else. As a matter of fact you are supporting other peoples jobs. Keep it up. |
Prof, I wish I was as eloquent as you are and Simonmoon I believe you are absolutely right.
Everyone is entitled to their own experience. My problem comes when people try to sell stuff to other people that are less knowledgeable and perhaps more gullible. Companies take advantage of this to sell products that are somewhat more than ridiculous. Then one of us thinks it made his system sound better and away you go. I think the Walker turntable is a very interesting design but I would never consider one based on the other crap they sell on their web site.
Buy Music,
Mike |
Andy, quite correct. At this point I have to be seriously warmed up. The nice thing about old guys is that once we are warmed up we last a lot longer.....as long as we save the sip of wine for after:))) |
None of us are saying that you should not evaluate equipment through as many measures as you can reasonably apply. The problem for back seat audiophiles like geoffkait is that there are mountains of absurd junk and snake oil out there that they want to believe will make a miraculous improvement in the sound quality of their systems. More so than buying the newest Boulder amplifier which they can't possibly afford. Neither can I for than matter. Prof, atdavid and I are just not delusional enough. I do keep my ARC phono amp on all the time because I do think it sounds better warmed up and I can afford the tubes. In reality I just hate waiting for it to warm up:) Oh and geoffkait, I would look for another profession. You might try being a psychologist. They are excellent at being wrong. |
Thanx Prof. It is not just sighted biases but intellectual ones also.
Another mistake people frequently make is confusing causation with association. Just because two events happen at the same time does not mean one caused the other even if logic says it does. The media does this all the time.
When I have a question whether or not something sounds better I try to arrange AB comparisons. I have many switch boxes I have built over the years to test predominantly wires from the listening position. I have one for preamps. Unfortunately it is impossible to do this for break in so we are left with no way to prove and no rational reason why break in should occur with electronic devices. Why doesn't anything sound worse when it breaks in? |
1+ atdavid. I was going to make that response but you beat me to it.
We all can recognize a cat meow or a dog bark. Some of us can recognize middle C. That is a far cry from remembering what a complex set of noises sounded like and comparing them to another set of complex noises.
clearthink as I explained above making an audio evaluation is a lot more complex than identifying a tone or recognizable pattern like the cat meow
or your wife yelling at you to turn the volume down. atdavid is anything but confused, disoriented or distracted. It is your comment that is painful. |
Prof, very eloquent.
After all this nobody has given us a proven reason why a purely electronic device needs to "break in" after the manufacturer's burn in.
Most of us who do not believe in electronic's breaking in do so because there is not a viable reason why they should.
Prof has noted that it is easy to hear minor differences in real time like when he is adjusting a mix. Otherwise it is not so easy. You can not remember a sound. You remember your characterization of that sound, a very low resolution method. Try remembering the sound of a particular instrument without having a picture of that instrument pop into your head.
Only superior individuals like millercarbon can do this. The way we characterize sounds is not accurate enough to make fine distinctions on a remote basis. We can all tell the difference between a cat meow and a dog bark. Can you tell the difference between two Siamese cats or two German Shepards on a remote basis?
It is impossible to approach this enterprise without bias. I dislike unipivot tonearms. My rational may or may not be legitimate but it is certainly viable and I am not alone in that thinking. There are many who believe electronic equipment breaks in sonically. I wish someone could give me a viable reason why. In reality the only reason they have is that they have heard it on a remote basis and as Prof eluded, that is purely subjective and we are not good enough at characterizing sounds we have heard to make that distinction accurately.
Mke |
jea don't kid yourself. The manufacturers have to remain politically correct or people won't by their equipment. You have to be a personal friend to know what they really think.
Noromance, I did not make up that expression but in most relatively minor cases it is quite true. Obviously not if your child gets killed in a car wreck.
Accommodation is used as a medical term and you are right. Everyone is accommodating all the time to numerous stimuli.
All those guys "burn in" their equipment primarily to make sure they are working up to snuff and nothing is going to blow on the customer.
Having said all that, just think about it from a manufacturer's standpoint. The customer calls because things don't sound just right. The easiest come back is, "well you have to break it in." Withing a few days or weeks the customer gets use to the sound and things are peachy keen. He thinks the unit broke in when in reality it is he that broke in. The human brain is way more flexible (and unpredictable) than an amplifier. Many companies now put something in their manuals like, "don't worry if it sound like crap. It takes three months for it to break in." When people don't know why they make stuff up. The Greeks made up Zeus. A very creative explanation for lightening.
Anyone care to give us just one proven reason why a purely electronic unit's sound should improve after manufacturer's burn in?
My ESLs break in because the diaphragms are initially over tensioned by a heat gun at the factory and it takes about 100 hours of play time for them to loosen up to the proper tension. The factory does not do it for obvious reasons. |
That's OK Doug. You hang back and I'll light the fire.
Certain mechanical devices like cartridges and speakers do indeed have break in periods.
All of our central nervous systems exhibit a characteristic called accommodation. All of you have done it numerous times under a plethora of circumstances. Your ears accommodate to loud volumes. Your sense of smell accommodates to noxious odors. Your vision accommodates to lighting. You even accommodate emotionally. Time heals all wounds.
Electronics do not have a break in period. You are only accommodating to the sound of your system. Your first impression is the right one.
As for Paul McGowen, he will tell you what ever it takes to sell his equipment. He is not Ralph Karsten, Nelson Pass or John Curl. You have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. As for PS audio, their designs have gotten better over the years and you can not argue with the business model. |
