Yes we must work a lot to discover new music...
But the number ofnew geniuses is astounding and growing ...
More than ever...
They are marginalized by the industries and by ignorant deaf crowds listening to their commercialized shit because uneducated by anyone ....
We must learn music, anyone saying the opposite is not only ignorant but musically dead...
Reacting passively to the same shit all our life is perhaps "entertaining" for some but pure conditioning implementation by corporations without even any working by our own consciousness...
Music is not only about nostalgia, but about awakening our spirit, emotionnaly to a higher level of perception...
It is "seeing" music like some perceive geometry or a movie...
Music contains so much holographic information than it make the heart beat out of your body at a higher rate...
Music is a dancing with or without the need for a body...
It is a seing with and/or without eyes....
It is a speaking with or/and without voices...
It is a color perception with or/and without any colors you already know...
Each cultural expression of music is like a new other planets to explore...
It is more than thrilling....
Then i am like most for sure, i love to feel nostalgia for some old song of the years 50/60/70...
But if it is your only notion of what music is, you lack most of music information body...
And those who dont listen at least jazz and classical, if not all cultural expression of music are almost spiritually deaf...
Sorry...
This is not my opinion it is the truth manifested through music complexities...
If you dont train yourself to understand complexities , they appear like a boring, confusing , headache, it is perhaps simpler to accuse other ofbeing "snob" instead of acknowledging our own limitation, acknoledging them and trying by listening experiments to "boldly go where no man has gone before"....
Music is not sound we already know only, it is a movie we have never seen or feel ever before...
It is a new planet, a new life, and a new understanding.... Nothing less...It is not a commercial "tune" ONLY ....
Read me right i like very much popular music too...
I spend money on great musicians like Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen and many others...
But it is only a small part of music.... And popular music in China or India is not Popular music on the american Radio....
The only music i hate is commercially motivated music....
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I am not competent nor able to claim truth in this important matter...
I am just interested by this matter...
I am also very interested, not so much by tests about our ability to perceive a conscious difference, for sure there is one, especially for trained ears of a tuner or a musician...
I am interested by future studies of mind/body metabolism reactions...
If the few studies i pointed to were able to be verified and confirmed in the future, then this indicate something truly deep about our body/mind metabolism clocks multi-scale system and the way it inscribe itself in the universe which is also like Kepler already thought a multi-scale scales clock system ...
The greatest specialist of clock multi-scales body/mind and cosmic crystals time like fractal clocks integrated systems is an Indian genius working in a scientific city in Japan on the first artificial brain ( not A.I. ). He proved everything about microtubules relating to the Hameroff-Penrose hypothesis 8 years ago already...
Anirban Bandyopadhyay
For me music is perceived holographical multidimensional information...We see music and not only we listen to it...
Music is geometry on the making among other thing....Music is also love in the making....
Alain Connes the founder of non-commutative geometry say the same thing as Anirban Bandyopadhyay : It is not so much that music is mathematic like Pythagoreans were claiming, it is mathemathics itself instead which is pure music...
Prime numbers distribution is "music of the sphere"....
Why?
Because mathematics ultimately is a divine beating heart which is the basis of the cosmic memory...Like the human heart is the basis of deep memory...
The mathematic of the cosmic memory working translation is now investigated by the school of mathematician, disciple of Grothendieck, Shinichi Mochizuki in his "inter-universal geometry" which is only the mechanism of translation between cellular memories or "universes" ( memories here are also creative imaginations)....
But here also i am not competent to formulate any claim, i am deeply interested by these matter because it was a dream of mine when i was 24 years old...If it was not for this dream about the deep meaning of the prime numbers distribution , now confirmed by these geniuses works in very different fields , i will not have been able to recognize through this complex mathematics the truth i was looking for all my adult life....
If you need a proof of "God" or to feel the way love work, listen to Bach and study prime numbers theory....Or/and fall in love....
We do not pay attention , then we kill each other...
@mahgister I appreciate the data relating to the 432 vs. 440 Hz thing.
I have not given the issue much time. I usually tune my instruments to 440 as that is the common standard, and may look into a conscious effort to at least try tuning my guitars (I’m bot a piano tuner, so that bad boy will have to stay “as is” for now) to 440 Hz, see what happens.
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Here another convincing one in favor of 432 hertz:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341319554_Effect_of_music_at_432_Hz_and_440_Hz_on_dental_anxiety_and_salivary_cortisol_levels_in_patients_undergoing_tooth_extraction_a_randomized_clinical_trial
Conclusion:
Only sets of measures of the human metabolism under different frequencies exposure will settle the matter...
Research about "conscious" perceived differences between these frequencies are not convincing at all... 😁😊
Why?
Because the mind is not the conscious ego, and the effect on the listener is not an effect on his concious ego filtered by conscious biases but effects on his mind/body metabolism which for the most part is a subconscious sea...
To end or to begin the reflection: this very neutral article is interesting with the main proponent, Lyndon Larouche, before Dr. Leonard Horiwitz himself, of "the 440 conspiracy" analysed :
Go on the internet to read this article, i cannot put the link to open here...
Perfect Pitch: 432 Hz Music and the Promise of Frequency by RE Rosenberg · 2021
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I must say about the 432 and 440 hertz controversies...I dont know if there is
only a pragmatic industry decision behind it, or not, but for sure our body react to frequencies in a direct way our consciousness did not...Then just comparing in non controlled condition few seconds songs to sense if there is a difference or not is preposterous...
It is not our biased conscious ability to do so or not, which is at stake here, but the way our body/mind react... The mind is not only the conscious tip of the iceberg we call ego...The mind is the body too...
Then we must listen to the two frequencies in an hour long comparison in few days repeat...
I am certain that a difference will be perceived...
I sense it but my listening is biased for sure... 😁😊
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31031095/
Abstract
Context: The current reference frequency for tuning musical instruments is 440 Hz. Some theorists and musicians claim that the 432 Hz tuning has better effects on the human body, but there are no scientific studies that support this hypothesis.
Objective: To identify differences in vital parameters and perceptions after listening to music at different frequencies, 440 Hz versus 432 Hz.
Design: Cross-over pilot study.
Setting: A room dedicated to listening to music, in an Italian city.
Participants: 33 volunteers, not suffering from acute and/or chronic diseases.
Interventions: Two sessions of music listening on different days. Both sessions used the same music (movie soundtracks) but tuned to 440 Hz on one day and 432 Hz on the other. Each session consisted of 20 min’ listening.
Main outcome measures: Vital parameters (blood pressure, heart rate, respiratory rate, oxygen saturation), perceptions (physical and emotional sensations, for example fatigue and stress), levels of concentration during the listening session, and general satisfaction with the experience.
Results: 432 Hz tuned music was associated with a slight decrease of mean (systolic and diastolic) blood pressure values (although not significant), a marked decrease in the mean of heart rate (-4.79 bpm, p = 0.05) and a slight decrease of the mean respiratory rate values (1 r.a., p = 0.06), compared to 440 Hz. The subjects were more focused about listening to music and more generally satisfied after the sessions in which they listened to 432 Hz tuned music.
Conclusions: The data suggests that 432 Hz tuned music can decrease heart rate more than 440 Hz tuned music. The study results suggest repeating the experiment with a larger sample pool and introducing randomized controlled trials covering more clinical parameters.
But this matter being very complex...
There exist also opposite conclusion from other experiment:
https://acousticengineering.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/pitch-shifting-to-432-hz-doesnt-improve-music/
Conclusion: this problem is a bit more complex than meet the eye at first here...
I am not enough competent to solve it in an objective way...I hadmy opinion based only in my listening, but it will take me months of study to solve this for sure.... Not 2 articles...
😁😊
But there is another one here in favor of 432 hertz:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31879635/
@mahgister
I disagree with your reply, and offer you... The real push behind it was nefarious, though that is denied by those who had the power to make it so.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4194106/440-hz-conspiracy-music/
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@mahgister
What was your career in? How long have you been retired?
I was guiding university students in their readings...3 years, just before covid...
My interests included mathematics, poetry, linguistics, spirituality, philosophy mainly... As an aside astrology and natural science....
My main interests is the way all fields of learning are connected by a higher perspective....
In one book the best writer about this , save Goethe himself, is : Jean Gebser, "the ever present origin"...
A changing life book.... Try it...But not easy reading at all.... The writer is a polymath...
If you study in the same time Ernst Cassirer "philosophy of the symbolic forms" deep exploration of a Goethan semiotic of culture to complete what is lacking in Gebser, you will have the deepest possible perspective in philosphy of knowledge and not only restricted philosophy of science... Cassirer was a deep Goethe scholar after being a Kant one ....He corrected what was missing in Kant by Goethe genetic and phenomenological approach so to speak...Goethe is a greater phenomenologist than even Husserl... But Goethe dont explain itself for the sake of explaining itself, he was in art and natural science writing not philosophy...Leonardo da Vinci used the same method than Goethe before him.... It is astonishing...
This goethean method is best described by a physicist disciple of David Bohm in few books : Henri Bortoft....
And this method is extensively applied in animal morphology by Wolgang Schad in an 1300 pages master book so great that anyone who read it will fall of his chair...😁😊
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@mahgister
I disagree with your reply, and offer you... The real push behind it was nefarious, though that is denied by those who had the power to make it so.
But it is musician that must decide to use this frequency or not.... Engineer can do nothing save "reproduce" what musician decide they will play... And this is another question only musicians can decide anyway...
https://globalnews.ca/news/4194106/440-hz-conspiracy-music/
i was answering about this problem by the immediate only solution : an awakening of the musicians themselves...
But you are right about this "conspiration"...
It is not the first and last "conspiration" origin ...A change so impactful cannot be implemented only by ignorance....
Medecine and education and banking were oriented by another "conspirations"...
History is like hunting, there is tracks...
And ordinary people, me included, cannot fathom evil depth...It takes a Dostoievesky at least...Where is our Dostoievsky today?
The only writer who described all this crisis i know of and most importantly proposed pragmatical and spiritual solutions died in 1925...
He described before his visible advent the transhumanism/ globalist/ technological cult agenda orientation in this world in details...
Rudolf Steiner... The greatest Goethe scholar...A chistian seer also....
He wrote about agriculture, medecine, education, art, science and spirituality...
He will be understood better soon, materialism is dying but alas! technology cult replace it... But humanity will not accept it.... If we do, we lost all freedom...
The agenda is clearly written by Klaus Schwab and Yuval Noah Harari...Only ignorance can deny it...
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Re the Flynnn effect..it seems as if Idiocracy actually is on the record, now, as being a real thing at least with respect to the current course of humanity, in the now....
Thanks!
Very entertaining and a grain of salt of truth probably...
I worked with gifted students in all fields all my life my only close contact with less awake people so to speak was on the bus...😉
Now retired, i am alone, and i take the pulse of humanity here in this forum...
😁😊
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Thanks for your kind words....
Music is an information hologram....Metaphorically and in real time....
I use music here in the MORE extensive general meaning of the word...
First: the first model of "Artificial consciousness" ( not artificial Intelligence here, the difference between A.I. statistical dynamical model and Anirban artificial brain is like the difference between a tool and a genuine brain using it ) use a "musical" set of tool, a musical geometry so to speak... Or time crystal fractals ladder of clocks ... Read his site to have an idea.... Anirban Bandyopadhyay....
https://www.nims.go.jp/nanophys6/Anirban%20Bandyopadhyay/site/index.htm
The books is this one, completely amazing genius with a take on consciousness which is techologically superior to anything i ever heard of....... "Nano brains"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086Q43W37/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
these videos introduce easily:
https://www.closertotruth.com/contributor/anirban-bandyopadhyay/profile
The writer is one if not the leader in in cycles and rythmic time geometry and information theory ...
His ideas were anticipated by a mathematician decade ago unknown to most, i read at the times, Charles Musès : Destiny and control in human systems. Studies in the interactive connectedness of time (chronotopology) (= Frontiers in systems research.). Kluwer-Nijhoff, Dordrecht/ Boston u. a. 1985
Anirban Bandyopadhyay theory, like Musès perspective is ultimately about musical synchronisation of all events explaining "life"....
In a complete different direction the great mathematician Alain Connes, father of non commutative geometry, explain the relation with time and music converging in his own way to Aniban theory from a complete different perspective...The deep meaning of prime numbers distribution and a musical interpretation of it...
But his theory is even more difficult than Anirban technological tools descriptions and his new non-algorithmic and non-Turing theory of brain/consciousness...
But the two reveal the breathtaking depth of vibrations and the music metaphorical and chronotopological meaning , Anirban Bandyopadhyay and Alain Connes the two geniuses, use the music of the prime numbers distribution at the CENTER of their theory, think about that a second.... 😁😊
You will fall of your chair understanding the meaning behind this fact trust me .... It will take time if you are new to this difficult subject matter though...
The third track is related to all works about unconscious and conscious cenesthesia in perception and interpretation of sounds meaning in music experience....Read about cenesthesia meaning research...
Also the fact that the vertical scales and horizontal chords are best described by Alain Connes non commutative geometry....
The mathematical/philosophical works of Ernest Ansermet the great french maestro about noetic qualitative logarythm and the way music is not a pure object but a position taken by a perspectival subject located in his own space give also a deep take on Occidental tonal history but i think the 1200 pages book is only in french...
@mahgister Thanks for sharing that video about Alan Mearns. I just bought two of his CD’s. Too bad he doesn’t have analog (LP) form for sale. . . Your perspectives about music and the global trends are quite interesting. . . I’m a Bach aficionado myself, with the trappings that come with that. I’ll have to look into the mathematical metaphor that music may represent in more detail. . . any pointers for researching that topic?
Thanks.
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Coming back to the thread matter...
Like for music we can enjoy now thanks to internet, all the great movies of the last century...From an era where artist like Fellini were free...
We can enjoy movies from any country and be spared from the worst of Hollywood cooking burger factory...
This is on one side corporate destruction of art and on the other side we can enjoy true art in an easy way if we know where to look for...
Then my pessimism dont tell all the story...
Never in my life i enjoyed so great musicians in so great numbers...
Anyway financial capitalism is dying....We can hope....
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Let them make a demonstration of Julian Assange first.
I will not contradict anything about your post...
Most people dont even think enough to know that Assange was a journalist, respectful of laws, they think he is a "traitor", they are like zombies wanting to kill someone who tried to awake them...
There is no freedom anymore in Canada, with Trudeau, only an appearence of freedom , now in the media no one dare to speak his mind...
In America the appearence of freedom is more convincing, but it is only an appearence.... All Occidental powers admire China success and control....
It is China not medecine who thaught government to control mass during the pandemic...
China and Gates/Fauci corporation....
The world economic forum say it loud...
No one pay attention...
And now in the world only one man is responsible for all problems , probably for covid too and the economic crisis, and why not also of the woke new "communism" totalitarian movement ? And for sure he reacted by aggression to 8 years of civil war payed by Otan in Ukraine against the third of the country speaking Russian...
I will not name this man....Biden see through " his evil soul"...
Everybody know who Biden is....More despicable than the clown Trump, who at least never encourage war...
I am sorry for us and for America....
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By the way it is not only some " music that has lost his charms" , music for the crowds for sure, because the number of great artists musicians has never been lowered; but cinema and popular movies for the crowds are more horrible than ever too , but the number of great movie makers has not declined ever , it is what the corporations control, the mass product which is atrocious and being made for low I.Q. people and made to lower our intelligence more...True artists are marginalized and pushed in a corner with less freedom all over earth but especially where big business reign supreme... ....
Compare the more attractive mass movie of the beginning of the seventies with movies these years....
Compare the story line and the level of complexity in plot and cinematography...
A great work of art is also a riddle for the intelligence like an I.Q. test... Interpretation is part of art...
There exist then the same phenomenon than in music industry... More "popular" products reduced to be commercial junk product with no soul for no brain....
But the number of great artists is not less numerous but they dont have the visibility and the money to work better...
Big corporation power is death....More the technology progress less the art grows nowadays, it is not means nor in the obligation to be this way in civilization ...
Because technology is used by businessman who control the content not by artists first ...And the cult of technology is death anyway...
Music and cinema are not the only fields destroyed by big growing corporations owned by few and fewer people than ever in a less and less competitive world than ever ....
Guess which are the others human fields of life in society which are affected for the worst?
Politic, medecine and science itself....
Knowledge is not science and science is not technology ....
Stanley Kubrick will not be possible today, he will not be free to do his own art...He will be a slave to a movie business...He will kill himself because he was so talented... Who kill Orson Welles genius? Corporate powers...Nowadays they are more powerful because all united and controlled by very few men ...
Where is the human, poetical, philosophical content of most movies nowadays ?
In the trash bin...
Anyway the masses are no more guided by any ideals, religious or others...They listen and spoke only to a phone....
The destruction of education is the master work of big corporation, the higher education is mostly a taming of beast and a training of brain for big business...
I cannot imagine what Dostoievsky or Mark Twain will wrote today and who will read them ..
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Thanks...
But it is musician that must decide to use this frequency or not.... Engineer can do nothing save "reproduce" what musician decide they will play...
And this is another question only musicians can decide anyway...
ESPECIALLY IF THE MUSIC CAN BE PLAYED AT 432Hz,
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Perhaps Rick beato lesson will not be erased here by ignorance at the wheel..
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Above Post erased not by me .... Truth is too much shocking....
A composer just wrote to thanks me to dare speaking the truth, and here someone erased my two posts above...
Thinking is "verboten"....Too socially disruptive like playing Mozart in a jail...Try it...It will cause a riot...
😁😊
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When i claimed music content is "holographic information", in my erased/censored post above, it is not a useless metaphor...
It is an exact mathematical metaphor...
Music is produced by man in a non commutaitve space... Music information is not Hertz only it is chords distributions in a dynamic non commutative space...
It is not my saying by the way, but the claims of one of the greatest mathematician on earth : Alain Connes... I posted a video above...
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«The problem isn’t a lack of good new music. It’s an institutional failure to discover and nurture it.»
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Do your own research. Try to find every place in your area where music is actually being played and go listen. Bars, parks, churches, nightclubs, community centers, concert halls, college campuses, don’t stop there! One of the towns near us has free concerts inside City Hall in the winter & on the lawn outside in the summer. There are summer concerts on an island, a ferry ride away.
My experience is that it is still all there. Not just music that charms, but music that entrances, music that makes you laugh, music that makes you cry, music that overwhelms, music that changes your life...
For sure you are right, but this is not the point at debate at all...
For sure there are plenty of living musical events all around North America...
Each months...Many in each cities...
The great musicians must played somewhere...No ?
No one contested that...
The Author of the article dont contest that neither me...
He spoke about the industrialization of music in official channels and media...
Corporations never killed PHYSICALLY the great crowds of musicians 😁😊 which exist nowadays in greater number than ever... They enslaved some and marginalized the others...They control distributions and the way the products will be market... Why do you think that there is a huge boom all around the earth with an indefinite numbers of homemade small self recording labels ?
This is the point...
Too much people listen to horrible commercial music, and many dont even know jazz nor classical, neither any of the numerous musical cultures on earth...They are even proud of it and wrote it in their post... Stupendous ignorance pride... And they will call me a snob jerk for sure... 😁😊
This is the point...
But there is also, it is the good news access , thanks to internet, to all great artists on earth....And there is more great musicians than ever... We are 8 billions people...
Those who remain deaf and never listen to jazz, nor classical, nor to any of the musical cultural traditions are in great numbers too and lack an education...
We lack education in music it is evident....
Then dont put in my mouth what i never said, i never claim that all great musicians are dead, or rare, or dying... They are more numerous than ever... But how did they get a chance to be listen to and make a living?
Popular music is half of it pure junk, half of it roughly....But this junk take most of the official visible space in the news...
How do we cure the industry?
By education, and by pointing to the stupid economical working of corporate deaf powers....like the author ofthis article did....
Musicians must decide about music not businessman....
Art is not a business nor a democracy....
Then do your own research too...
I myself discover a genius in music almost each week...
I know excatly like you that great music has never been so easy to access...
In recorded format or in living event...
But never before, the radio, and Tv and the crowds of consumers plug on their telephone ever listen to the most horrible musical trash ever created... This is a fact too...
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A non commercially motivated piece of music can be a popular one and often is...
All commercial pieces did not have some artistic value though...And this junk dominate many communication chanels...
The writer of these article wrote about the ratio Popular music versus purely commercially motivated music, this ratio resembling more nowadays to a slippery slope toward mediocrity...In the sixties for example he was right, the ratio commercially motivated and musical quality was very good and better than today ON OFFICIAL MEDIAS ... He did not claim that there exist no more good musicians... They are marginalized...And anyway the musical education standard is lower in all scools for money reason and anyway music is perceived to be useless for most people...
This writer will never negateand he did not that the quantity of true great artists all over the world surpass anything in the past...it is a demographical fact....But there is no musical education in general and a total ignorance of any different musical instruments or different cultural styles out of traditional modern popular and/or commercial one in North America... Most young are not exposed to higher quality music, dont listen it first, and dont even know jazz or classical, they have no idea about Chinese, Indian , Persian, Turkisch music too etc...
They dont understand music, they "taste" it like a Macdo burger asking for a Macdo burger till their death...Trump is very rich, guest what he eat?
Music must be learned....
But in the North American medias and channels, no education, no publicity for world great musicians... Have you ever listen to the marvellous sarangi in north america ?
Where and when ?
Dont project your prejudices on the writer of this article try to understand his point....
Yes we are lucky those of us who appreciate music high spiritual meaning to listen now to more great musicians living than in all the past...yes...It is a demographical fact...
But north American masses are keep in chains and in conditioned slavery by marketing and schooling methods of the corporate empire, in all fields of life, and in music too...
We are on the verge of self destruction and some will claim that this is their "taste" and they are free to want it...
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’Some guy on the internet’ who wrote this:
We dont need "a flag to be proud of " to unite all those who, like larsman because they never had any musical education and evolution, think that their apparent "freedom" to choose the only musical world that they know is not unbeknownst to them, an direct expression of their own mental chains....
knows nothing about me but sure knows how to write long-winded, boring posts.
You wrote this yourself:
I’m almost 71, I don’t like jazz and am not much into classical,
Then you listen to what, african traditional music, for example pygmies polyphony? they are marvellous..
You listen to Yoruba drum, one of the most astonishing drumming masters on earth?
Do you listen the poetical Erhu?
Do you listen the Rudra Veena ?
Do you listen sufi music?
Do you know anything about North-african music?
I think you listen mainly "commercial" music which sometimes can be very good, and popular, but at least half is pure junk...You say it yourself....
Then why answering a thread about music quality listening declining for market conditioning reason , you spoke like if your right of tasting junk food like others taste high culinary dishes must be written in the American Constitution like arms right are?
You are "free" indeed...
The constitution dont protect people against corporation indoctrination of mases methods sorry if you dont know that...
But dont claim you know what music is.... You dont...
Simple.... Sorry...
Go on with your empty content post and i will go on with my "boring" one ...
’
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There is a way to say truth...
We can let the reader attain his own conclusion without imposing it or we can suggest it... 😁😊
Music is not first about taste or only entertainment...Sorry...
We are not crocodiles arguing for our rotten corpse taste freedom right here...
We dont need "a flag to be proud of " to unite all those who, like larsman because they never had any musical education and evolution, think that their apparent "freedom" to choose the only musical world that they know is not unbeknownst to them, an direct expression of their own mental chains....
Music and sound is not about "tastes" freedom first and last ... Music is about cultural education and sound is about acoustic / psycho-acoustic knowledge...
But nowadays it is a bad, very bad thing to say the simple truth...
Even elementary one...
Everybody ask for the freedom to sniff HIS shit...
Are we a society of tribal apes arguing about evidences?
"Freedom" is for mature citizen when they act, not for children in school waiting to be educated...The music teacher is not in the obligation to serve them and their freedom with the usual commercial shit and justify and approve their ignorance...Teachers are free mature citizens...They are not the slave worker of the pupil’parents money...
And by the way all " popular" music is not "commercial" shit music...I say that for the idiots who will confuse the two categories to destroy my argument...I like many popular music pieces for musical reason..
But we must distinguish the two and learn how to do so with a musical education....
And if we own an audio system, we must learn how to listen with an acoustic education...Marketing brand name "taste" choices express often only complete ignorance even when they are justified by sound design science ...Acoustic basic fact are not "tastes" categories about brand name products even when they are good products sorry ...Learning how to listen is NOT BUYING a piece of gear, even a good one...
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I’m almost 71, I don’t like jazz and am not much into classical, so I am proud to have listened to just junk and have no idea what good music is!! 🤣🤣🤣
The fact that we are free to listen to anything, dont implicate that our own "taste" rule...
You dont know what music is ,then why attacking simple elementary fact:
Admit that you have no idea of what music really is...
How can you?
i myself appreciate and like ALL music on earth, with the exception of "commercial" music ....It is not my "taste" here, it is my musical education which rule...
Dont promote your "taste" to be knowledge... You dont know anything, being proud of it, dont make it right and will never did....
Then if an old man say that if people dont appreciate jazz nor classical, nor any cultural classical music of any countries, save "commercially" produced music, they dont know what music is, this old man is not a diplomat for sure,😊 but he is right....
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Thanks for your post...
I know Coppola was an artist not a businessman, but i did know about “Heart’s of Darkness: A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse”
Thanks very much....
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Crocodile call "art" the way they put a corpse to decay under water for some weeks before eating it...
They say this is their "taste"...
Music is about art and beauty and spiritual experience.... Entertainment also...But when entertainment is the only value, and change of sound the only meter for popularity we have a problem...
If we are only interested by entertainment, corporations will be happy to give us the necessary varieties of rotten meat...
Music need education like any sciences or any other arts...
Are we crocodile who are only happy with our "tastes" and stuck with it till our death ?
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If deludedaudiophile was knowing you he will be afraid of your approval... 😁😊
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It probably has to do with the limited market for foreign language elevator music though with that shrieking in the middle it could have people reaching for the stop button.
Is it sarcasm?
Or is it a serious attempt to make a cheap point?
Place an icon to mark inoffensive sarcasm...
I think you are too intelligent to consider this post your best...
😊
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Here an example of popular music which is not a commercial product first and last...Never played on any radio and TV in US...Or in Canada... Why?
a clue: the power of a business of conditioning the mind to buy meaningless products.to make them "popular" Commercial crap for everyone with no soul nor traditional roots...
She is the Russian Joan Baez or Joni Mitchell, all two great popular artists that never compromised their souls to create "commercial" music ....
Popular poets and musicians are not commercial objects created for the masses entertainment by business...Corporations can sell them yes but they never created them....It is not the case for many "commercial" "artists"....
The fact that the border between popular high quality music and commercial product is not a clear line, dont means that the distinction is not there and useless...
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By the way this article if someone read it, is not about a nostagic old dude complaining...it is an objective description of the business power over music...
The reduction of a part of popular music to commercial means and goals...This make "commercial" music product completely new product for the consumers, where music play a secondary role and is often ugly...
It make sense to me...
«The reality today is that the music industry makes money off of everything other than the music, if it makes money at all. Concert tickets, tour revenue, product tie-ins and licenses, and swag at all the events are the real money makers. The corporate suits and conglomerate clowns who came to own and operate the major music businesses were not only musically deaf and dumb, but also greedy, lazy, and unwilling to change.
The music business has always been about the business first and the music as an afterthought, but the industry didn’t really take care of either one for many years. The music execs made three main mistakes, which are just as likely to cause problems in your business if you’re not careful....
--- First, much like the movie business -- with its franchises and tentpole films -- the labels constantly pushed the talent for more and more of the same.
---Second, the head honchos were completely risk averse and unwilling to invest in anything other than the very sure thing that their current catalog of music represented. New delivery methods, new production technologies, new channels to reach their users were all available, but none of the old-line traditional players stepped up. Instead, they left the field wide open for Apple and other tech companies to develop innovative and attractive new solutions.
----And finally, with the emergence of streaming and fixed algorithmic systems for radio play, the industry bean counters discovered a fundamental truth: They were being paid exactly the same amount per song whether the song was brand new or 50 years old. They quickly concluded that if their customers (stations and streamers) were indifferent to the age of the content and the end users were actually looking for the older music, there was little or no reason to rock the boat and push for new material. Investing in new talent turned out to be an incremental cost which they chose to avoid. »
I will add to that the ethical and esthetical imperative to educate people about music, were no more supported by corporations and way less so by radio and TV ... We must educated ourselves...It is possible more than ever with internet for example ... But we are alone here....
There is more better musical choices possible than ever in the past, but there is less musical education in media and in school than ever...
And popular music was vampirized by commercial musical marketing and productions tools in the hand of non musicians but businessmen... For sure...
Here an exemple of a popular piece of the highest quality which had nothing to do with commercial music chain ugly meaningless production...
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Wow, this guy sure has a lot of time to have listened to all ’commercial music of today’, whatever that is - I guess the music he likes is not intended to be sold - and make a blanket condemnation of all of it.Or is it more "I don’t like it so it’s horrible and ugly!!!". Never seen that attitude before....🤣
First you distorted what i was speaking about...
It is not the first time you do that...
I was speaking about the differences between POPULAR music and COMMERCIAL music in general...This disctinction exist and it is not born from my sole opinion...
Popular music in general may be very good, commercial music is rarely good...
I dont condemn anything, i said that commercial music is uglier than ever...
You assimilate my observation with a condemnation of popular music. to make your ugly point insulting me..
All popular music is not commercial music, only a part of popular music is commercial fabricated junk...But this junk nowadays is on the air more than in the golden age of popular music..
Then before insulting people pratice your brain about reading their post...
And dont imitate your poster guru here, the one you give always +1, speaking to me like him at the third person like an appeal to the crowd and like if i was not there... Grow an individualized brain...
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If is is great music, why are none of those awful media people trying to promote it and make money off of it?
Because the more higher the music qualities, the more cultutrally different the music qualities, the more it ask for an educative process which is not the task of big musical corprations controlling official medias like radio...
Some little business musical company do it, or the musicians themselves do it publishing themselves and recording themselves ...
Not the general big broadcasting company...
Do you think american radio broadcasters promote the sarangi or the ehru or the talking yoruba drum music? Or even some unknown nordic jazzmen? All these music are very popular somewhere around the world...They are not very good commercial product in North America...
As music is nothing ever more than a personal experience, this is your opinion, not fact.
For sure music is a personal experience so what?
Did i negate this common place fact?
But commercial music is not synonym with popular music...
Bob Dylan being popular is not commercial musak music... And this is a FACT.... Popular dont equal commercial here...
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Again, mahgister, sheet music was around way before Edison. Commercially available sheet music...hit songs of the time..
Again.... 😁😊
Sheet music was not ONLY and MAINLY a "commercial" business, it was a cultural necessity first to make playing family and musical education a general societal fact... The commercial aspect here are subordinated to the musical activity....
The fact that i will buy a wedding ring and a dress, does not make love a business, or a commercial sex enterprise...Internet will do it on s scale so great that it will make old prostitution business a primitive economical game ....
Like recording and vinyl albums will make music an "object" to sell more than an event...We can buy a violin or sell it too this does not make music a "commercial" affair...And someone claiming sheet music make music a business is not wrong but it extend and distort the meaning of the activity out of his limits... Music begun to be a business after recording invention...And after the development of modern marketing technique many aspects of music begin to be a consumers objects instead of being mainly a spiritual activity...
With Edison and the marketing of music playback with recording, music begin to be a product itself, an no more mainly a spiritual event ....
The musical activity here became subordinated to the commercial goals...
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Great remarks...
Much of the music from the 60’s is long lost in our memories (ditto the 70’s). We remember the good stuff, or more specifically, we remember the stuff that generates the highest emotional engagement, which does not need to be the highest emotional engagement in everyone, but a high enough emotional engagement in enough people to keep the memory alive:
There exist great musicians and singers more than ever today, but they are marginalized by bad commercial products...
We have access to great Chinese music, Indian one, Persian, one Nordic Jazz, etc...
Music today is stronger than ever....
But medias are owned by few people....Publicity and marketing , fabrication of products, polluted official mediums...
We will remember great music in decades to come , not because we will listen to it on radio like in the 50 or 60, but because we will stumble on it using peripheral channels to access it...It is my case....
Commercial music of today is horrible... Uglier than possible...
But there is more great music and musicians now than ever...
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The simple truth is right now, it is an amazing time to be into music. Better than ever. Pick your medium, records, CD’s, streaming. Etc etc etc!
For sure, i can listen to any indian master or any Nordic jazz i wanted too...
Commercial industrial music is bad, but we have access now also to the best artists there is in the world...
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I have no problem saying there is likely great music being created today. I also have no problem saying that most of what makes it onto the radio or onto other media today is drivel.
Great post!
It is this radio or other media most of the times crap i called "commercial" music...
Very good popular music all across the world is unknown in traditional media...
Artists are boycotted .... They are not enough usable "commercial" products..
There is more artist creators in music today than ever, but corporations rules not art...
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Thanks for your always kind words...
Yes there is parallels between popular music now and then...
But "commercial" music exist only with Edison invention...
And popular crowds reaction deont change with time, what changed for the worst in " commercial music" is the diffrence between a "product" to sell, the performer itself, and the artist status and creative talent...
For sure art and beauty is participated by a minority in every ciltures at any times...
But "commercial" music is recent... And most of the time "ugly"...And i speak about commercial music here being ugly, not popular music... Bob Dylan is a poet and great musician ....So are many others popular artists...A popular artist can be and is also a commercial produt for sure, but not all commercial products are real creative artists...
@mahgister ...If ever in your company, I will happily listen to your setup and your music. Even if it happens to be here than there....Just made a typo, ’hear’ for ’here’....interesting, that... ;) Classical forms were supported by the 1%’ers of those times and places.
They were also subject to rude crowds and fistfights post-debut....
Pardon if I don’t see much differences, other than the centuries between. 😏
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Commerical music now and then ... Has always been commercial (sellable) because it was what people wanted to listen to of what was available.
For sure you can repeat fact that are not even wrong... And call that the truth...
Or you can try to understand what i spoke about....
When Josquin Des Prez was dead, all Europe was sad....Not because they lost a commercial artist.... Guess why they were sad?
When Scriabin died in Russia it was the same lost all across Russia...
it was the lost of a popular artist idolized for his non economical value...
But you can call the deal with the devil also a "commercial" affair because the soul is sellable...A popular deal in some circle dont make it a commercial affair though ...
Anyway the devil dont consumate souls , he is very picky... Very educated ...He choose...
By definition,commercial culture is the death of culture... Consumerism created by Freud nephew is destruction of human soul and spirit...It was anticipated by Bernard Mandeville, before Marx and Freud , "the master of us all" said the austrian economist Hayek ...
Unlike the WEF said, conditioning of mind by consumerism is not education...
Commercial music is not first and last thought about to be a musical fact and to be produced like one ....It is something created to be sell...It is not created to be "art"....
It is the reason why i distinguish popular music and commercial music...It is not a clear cut absolute distinction for sure but this dont invalidate my point... Bob Dylan is a popular true artist.... Not primarily a commercial product...
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They made music because they were paid to whether by church or as often nobility. For money, the definition of commercial. No one else could afford such frivolities to commission work. However, it was also consumed by the masses .. so popular and commercial though of what competition I can’t speak.
You are beside the main point...
There ALWAYS existed commercial aspect to any activities in all centuries..It is a common place fact...
But my point was that commercial music consumerism is a late affair... It is born AFTER playback system of Charles Cros and Edison...
Popular music of the past is not commercial music in the modern sense of the word...
Popular dont equal commercial in music culture....
In the past music was an education toward spirit and religious matter or toward beauty and superior values... This word "beauty" is cancelled today....
This dont exist no more in commercial music...
Nowadays Bob Dylan is a popular poet for example not a commercial object first and last...
If you say to Dylan that he is merely a commercial product , he will be insulted...
If you say that to some commercial artists they will be glad and will try to improve their packaging and they will ask you how to do it better....
Then saying that Vivaldi one hundred operas were "commercial" music is not true...
Popular yes... Commercial not....We cannot read the past projecting onto it retrospectively our own categories sorry...Historians wrote entire books about this error only....
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Operas and classical was the commercial music of it’s time.
Not true...
Projecting our actual economical categories on the past is not very useful...
First Vivaldi, Haendel and Bach were paid by some Religious or Noble elites not by a general popular market in the modern sense at all...
Second put the word "popular" instead of "commercial" word if you want to be truthful ... Why?
Because the tradition was not about economical consumerism but about learning cultural and spiritual activities, religious or secular, but NEVER based on pure mercantilism but on transmission of cultural values mainly....
Third, music was mainly a spiritual event paid by church for centuries...And with no recording, playing musicians were mostly artists or learning families playings, nothing commercial ...
But you can abuse the word and concept and claim that standing in a hall after buying a ticket to listen Liszt was a "commercial" event...But it will be completely beside the point of whatmusic was meaning at this modern time period...
Commercial music is an invention of this last industrial century mainly....
Then Operas and classical was the popular music of it’s time...Not the "commercial" affair it is today....
And a commercial publicity for an opera in Italy in the 19 century, has not much to do with consumerism marketing strategies of today....Puccini was popular yes, but not a consumers objetc, he was idolized because he was a true artist....This is not commerce, even if there is commercial aspect, the singers must be paid etc, this is culture event first and last ....
Modern pop industry can even create temporary idols who dont have almost no talent at all , one after the others...I will not name one...But they all know how to walk and dance for sure... They are sold with visuals...
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I never listened to popular music even young...
I listened mainly choral music spanning centuries in European tradition, and Bach andother composers.....
And there is indeed good popular music for sure i listened too .... I like Bob Dylan or Leonard Vohen or Leo Ferré for example till today ...I listen Elena Frolova nowadays for example....Pure poetry...
But commercial music had never any appeal for me.... I never own one single commercial album i can listen to 2 times...( i forgot the one i ever bought, it was the third purchase and i was 13 years old, it was so bad i never bought any other commercial album for all my life ) I bought one Rolling Stone album....I listen to it 2 or 3 times and i discard it... 😁😊
Then commercial music of today for me is pure noise it is worst than Rolling Stone for example....I know i look like a "snub"...I am not, music for me is and has been always a spiritual or poetical event... If not, it is animal disturbing noise for me sorry...
I listen nowadays great actual musicians in jazz and classical, in India or Persia... And some others...
Then music has not lost his charms for me at all...
Commercial music had lost it for me long ago....
Who who read a bad novel Harlequin instead of Charles Dickens or Mark Twain?
And try Dostoievsky and call it a day.... 😁😊
Nevermind tastes, crocodiles had theirs too , music is an education first not a taste....
We take education to learn and develop "new" tastes.... If not like crocodile we will stay with rotten corpses, they are meattier... 😁😊
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