I forsee a career for mahgister selling herkimer diamond and tourmaline jewelry on Etsy!
I made sure in this post to describe one of my artefact like a bait for some fish brain to pick...Congratulations! You pick that instead of schuman generators.....I am not surprized.... But i will sell on Etsy instead Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid by the way....Because they are more acoustically impacful than quartz and tourmaline effect and more impactful than S.G. ... And easier to sell to deaf ears or fish brain...Helmholtz being the founder of modern controlled room acoustic... I am going to state the obvious. Our increased knowledge of how the universe works does not change how the universe works. Our understanding of the cause, does not change the effect. Our lack of understanding also does not change the effect. it is precisely why sometimes we are surprized by introducing in an audio system some new improbable or supposedly, at first sight, inactive or "useless" materials beside an electronic device, like shungite or quartz, then some known effect is resulting by modification of the cause by a free act of the experimenter, something is added to the "effect" coming from an addition or modification of the " cause"....This is called an experiment...And it is not always and necessarily a placebo....Contrary to the affirmation of simplistic brain... And our understanding of causes anyway may change the effect, positively or negatively, read psychology about negative or positive cultural biases... Our lack of understanding change the effect, look at cargo cult people waiting not for "plane"! but for gods.... And if you are inclined in science do yo know the experiment devised by Wigner in Q.M. called "Wigner friends" ? consult wiki...and read about " no-go theorem" in the wiki article about Wigner’s friend.... Contrary to what you just said Wigner was thinking that perhaps our increased knowledge may change the way the universe work if Q.M. worked... An information conscious feed back can perhaps play a greater role in the universe working than the "materialist" think.... Then why adding a piece of shungite,like i experimented with for example, couldn't in any way worked, modifying the sound coming from an electronical designed piece of gear ? Why calling that a delusion? Why not calling it a real sound modification, negative or positive, that could be replicated ? Only simpleton or ignorant or SUPERSTITIOUS mind describe reality by their decree or by ready made recipe or by their blind faith and never experimenting... Be creative.... Experimenting with something dont means that we negate the value of engineering scientific known recipes...save for zealot and fish brain.... |
Prof are you really a scientist?
Or a crusader disciple of James Randi...Obsessed by cables like Randi was obsessed by spoon benders...
No audiophile and music lover need blind test....
Marketers of drugs or audio products perhaps need it, debunkers in a circus also or on a theater or in a show on tv....
Serious use of blind test methodology is very complex and implicate statistic in drug market for example...And anyway all the problem in audio life is the way by which we must educate our "biases" way more than the way to eliminate them... It is called a continuous series of listening experiments...Like a practicing musician on a new instrument coordinating hands and ears.. In my room i coordinated mechanical modifications about vibrations controls for example, electrical modifications pertaining to the noise floor level with devices of my own, and many many acoustical modifications ...
All that has no value for you if not blind tested? And if you work someday like me around your system will you wait for a blind test for each of the many hundred introduced modifications... Do you see the ridicule of your obsession? Do you see the misplaced imposition of blind test by you in an audiophile creative forum? and all this revendications to be a scientist from you, asking forcefully for blind tests are they not ridiculous ?
I fine tuned each one of my 40 Helmholtz tubes and pipes resonators and diffusers to actively control my link speakers/room...
And the only blind tests useful was for me accidental blind test, when some device is uninstalled or removed by accident, and my feeling said so, and simple private conscious blind test in the course of a work when a change in sound is borderline between real and placebo....
Do i need public blind test to satisfy you and mute your mantra ?
I installed a grid of Schuman generators, do i need to blind test each one addition or all of them in one test strike?
I created many devices of my own like special diffusers in set of suspended strings with passive connectors and herkimer diamond and tourmaline....
Do i need blind test to verify if they work or if it is a placebo?
Creativity cost nothing sometimes, stupidity generally cost way more....
« An elephant blind tested is no more an elephant»-Groucho Marx
Guess why? |
Look class! This is the sound someone makes when they can’t produce a reasoned rebuttal to an argument. Sorry but all your "arguments" are sophism around a mantra...the mantra is Blind-test....Your idea of science is akin to a comic book fiction... and in this comic book superman is a scientific superpower debunking astrology and ground bare walking.... Is it not pitiful enough? Ears are not replaceable by equations or arguments... Psycho-acoustic use measures, very precise one, of all kinds, but none of them replace hearing experience or even explain it...Psycho-acoustic is precisely an exploration of hearing mysteries...One of the problem for example covered in a 800 hundred page book i own is : what is musical timbre... Save for religious scientism mind, measure of electronic design is very far to explain what we hear through and audiob system or what we could hear with an improved an audio system modified by many embeddings controls...... Dont test your ears ,educate it.... No human ears is perfect for sure, no need to prove it at all, but all ears can be educated by our own strike of EXPERIMENTS...For our own pleasure.... This audiophile claims of mine is not a zealot mantra like your obsession with blind test but an invitation to be creative.... |
Since when has the common opinion been worth any value? I thanked someone for his simple common sense post , and out of the blue you take it personally SWITCHING completely from the post content of lhasaguy that has no relation to your own posts and you come back to your OBSESSION with speakers of certain type...ad nauseam.... Please dont read my post anymore and go out in a speakers thread ...i am myself interested by matters pertaining to all audio system, and i am not interested by obsession for particular design in any piece of gear.... It is my last post answering to your compulsive behavior...... By the way we ALL know that crossX over speakers are a compromise and large band speakers may be one better solution.. but life is made of trade off.... Then all of us knowing what you speak about for already hundred of posts it is no more necessary to repeat it.... All people here could not sell their crossXover speakers to buy a large band one because you said so.... and it is the same remark about high sensitivity....Is it clear? Or you will repeat your not so new information till the thermodynamical death of this universe? Next time i thanks someone stay silent about my post and DONT QUOTE IT....I will thanks whom i will choose to thanks .... It is the second time in this thread you quote me inappropriately.... i dont want a THIRD TIME.... |
Thanks for your wise common sensical post...
My best to you....
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mahgister5,689 posts05-05-2021 8:51pmIn that regard science fails miserably. Science dont fail at all...Pseudo scientist fail... Sorry but your quote is from the OP of this thread not from me... Science never fails miserably... Only "self appointed scientist" here fails miserably... Then dont implicate me in your future irrational rant.... Thanks |
Q.M. play a fundamental role in perception like in the photosynthesis of a cell...
Who says that Q.M. negate physical acoustic? Strawman argument of simplistic mind...Nobody never says that here...sorry.... Dont read what you need for to give munition for your children war against audiophiles...
But you know that psycho-acoustic and neurophisyological acoustic are a bit more complex than physical acoustic, dont you?
And for "prof" clothed in "Science" itself it is very comical to read his children like attitude of controlled despise ( but generally polite yes thank you for that) toward very different persons who try to improve their system by basic science yes but also sometimes by creative unorthodox means....They dont merit to be accused of being gullible in mass...
You must attack some audio companies and propose them your blind test....And let us innovate in our own room at peanuts cost with shungite, 10 bucks schumann generators, ionizer at few bucks, Helmholtz resonators or diffusers made of toilet paper roll (Yes true simple science is not moved by costly esthetical marketing at least in my room 😊) without accusing us to be ignorant and gullible.... We are TOO many here and too different to be treated like a sheeps crowd.....By the way my NO COST Helmholtz equalizer grid was fine tuned by my ears during a 3 months period.... No blind test needed....
"Science" dont exist by the way.... It is a grammatical short-hand expression for some rhetorical and cultural need...Those who think the opposite are modern zealot not skeptic but true believers...
Only exist SCIENCES in the plural with a very general methodological rule relating each fields in the most general way possible, because between psychology, electronics and cosmology or mathematics and medecine or biology the only link is an ETHICAL position of the consciousness loooking for truth....But truth is not enough for a living , in human life we need values.... And sciences are mute on the subject of value.... Your "science" used by you in a singular syntaxical mode dont exist even in the Lancet magazine or in the Nature magazine save for the means it gives to these institution to socially CONTROL and REGULATE with good effects and sometimes very negative effects..Only exist diverse sciences....not one of them owning truth... Only relative aknowledged historical facts.... And opposing to my view the argument that i defend the possibility to fly like Icarus or the possibility of walking through walls is not an argument but a sophism....
Your "science" is a theater boasting, a theatrical gesture for children here or for adults you treat like if they were children waiting for your education.... Like the gesture of past popes about their dogmas.... |
All we hear is placebo if not blind tested and walking against a wall is the proof of material reality against Q.M. interpretation...
😊
No answer is needed....I will not post any article about wall and Q.M. save if you ask for it and i will even explain it to you because it is a complex matter ....
You are not tiresome... I smile....But like stand up comics repeating these 2 mantras above make you tiresome at the end...
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"It’s not so much that Science has been proven, "wrong", but: that it’s moved on, in so many areas."
You are right for sure.... And my Goethe quote say the same thing....Science is not a decree someone can use against spirit, astrologers, God, or magicians.... Science is an aspect of the travel of consciousness looking for truth and experiments and reason engrossed by creativity because reason without creativity is a dead body.... Science is not a mere word used in audio forum to justify blind test where blind test has no real usefulness : in your home or small personal audio laboratory..... In a hundred continuous experiments i never used " organized" blind test, only my own accidental or improvisezed blind test....We are audio enthusiasts not marketers trying to use blind test to sell a drug or a dac, nor zealot Randi disciple trying to debunk their claims...Nobody need statistic to create an hi-fi system....(By the way only an idiot or a showman like Randi can offer money prize to debunk psychic faculties, they are all over the place and history illustrate it with plenty of examples but zealots dont like history because history always destroy dogmas) Life is not simple save for simplistic mind.... Rodman you battle with zealots not scientists... There exist in history example of religious heart with very scientific mind and also of atheist and materialist with zealot mind.... Q.M. killed materialism in 1925... And any human perception involved Q.M. effect and life in his more basic working like photosynthesis work only because Q.M. No science today is able to explain hearing.... We know many facts but none of our maps explain reality.... Save for transhumanist or simplistic mind confusing spirit/brain/and A.I together or conflate consciousness/"matter"/ and algorithm... The least possible philosophical position today is a form of idealism or panpsychism...Bernado Kastrup is easy for materialist to read i recommend it.... Cassirer or Goethe are not for too simplistic mind Alas!... Mine (idealism) was inspired from mathematics all my life...Not the mathematic technology of A.I. for sure.... 😊😊 |
But...Do you do everything anyone ever suggests you try? For your audio system, health, whatever? Or do you employ some critical thinking to sift where your time, money and energy are better spent? That’s all I’m doing.
It is a perfectly rational attitude for yourself...Congratulation! But why imposing your scientism ascetic attitude to ALL here.... Because in an audio forum criticising ANY out of the norm experience and experiments if not blind tested first is no more rational.... It is a crusade... By the way a schumann generators cost 10 bucks ....to experiment with it do not cause great lost... And a shungite plate is also very low cost... And i never bought ANYTHING over few bucks.... I enjoy a S.Q./ cost ratio out very high....Only basic science or experiment with some device which others claim to be useful: schuman generators or Helmhotlz devices, or minerals like Herkimer diamond and shungite... Or my own method to control vibrations with springs and other materials at peanuts cost....Great success...Peanuts costs.... Science is not a crusade against : God, astrology, homeopathy, magic, or barefootwalking and religion...Dawkins is no more useful than Randi....When science is a crusade it begin to mimic an ideology and transhumanism irrational faith and idolatry is not too far... Science is a method of inquiring mind linked to experiments, not an ideology to be used in crusade with the blindtesting obsession....Science is really NOT a religion or a cult....For example science is not in any way linked to the cult of atheism or to the blind testing obsession in audio.... Like famously say Groucho Marx , keep a rabbit feet in your pocket to remind you of the necessary added healthy creative irrationality in your life but to remind you also of the unavoidable unhealthy "irrationality" in any human life.... Irrationality like reason come ALWAYS in 2 flavors...The right posology is a balance between the 2 flavors... When there is no balance, reason mimic irrationality, and irrationality mimic reason... To improve i recommend reading Lao-Tse, and Goethe....After that Ernst Cassirer a friend of Einstein.... |
You misunderstand.
This thread is about how science, and the scientific method, bares upon audio claims. Another distortion for keeping your crusader agenda... Read the OP stating question.... This thread is not your property , on the contrary the OP suggest wisely that known engineering facts ( i will reserve the name of science for other things) perhaps dont explain all there is in audio experience... Then boxer is right and has a good perspective....He dont look like a crusader at all unlike you.... Me i am perhaps a crusader also, 😊against people who give lesson and label all audiophiles in the same bag because they dont use blind test... Science is not first blind test but begins FIRST by anecdotal individual experiment, especially with a specific audio system in a very specific electrical grid in a very specific room with very specific pair of ears.... In an audio forum we exhange about INDIVIDUAL experiences.... Not about "scientific decree" mainly and blind test in particular.... |
You are irrational... When you condemn barefoot walking you condemn it nevermind any theory proposing explanation, assimilating it to superstition in astrology and anything out of your mind... This article of your neurologist criticize some theory pretending to prove barefootwalking benefit not the barefoot walking benefit itself... On the other end a scientist saying that science will never prove the benefit of barefoot walking by principle is not a scientist in my book... He is more cautious than you anyway....
By god you seem to be gullible.
Yes i am credulous, and very skeptical at the same times in general... Credulity being "A "and skeptical being " B", My working brain go from A to B and from B go back to A, with some new ideas about a way to prove or disprove my belief... It is called thinking... Exemple: Faith healer.... I am credulous than i accept that it is perhaps possible.... It is "A"... By "B" i doubt it but instead of rejecting the idea i keep his possibility in my OPEN mind....It is called going from B to A .... And times to times i have discovered very interesting fact about faith healing...Is it not better than your decree mentality? It is not scientifically proven for me BUT very possible by my inquiring thinking process...There exist for example HISTORICALLY some event linked to some faith healer that really make us skeptic about the impossibility of faith healing... True Skepticism is a sword with 2 sides by the way..... « Why do you keep a rabbit feet in your pocket Groucho? Because it is the only way to keep rationality when you speak with a robot»- Groucho Marx dixit |
By the way prof read this about magnetic field effect for healing.... There is another doctor here that think that it is possible is it another crook? for you for sure... But being rational i will not go full speed against him ...Read his short areticle... It is not a proven scientific fact but it seems that this magnetic field effect deserve scientific experiments more than your power to decree what is science and what it is not are suggesting to us in your post... https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/magnetic-field-therapy-overview For faith healers and phone psychic i will let you keep them in your bag with deluded audiophiles tough....It will be too long post for me to reveal the limiting power of your "scientific papal brain"... |
mahgister, FYI: I have come to ignore your replies, based on past experience, and seeing you produce more of the same. Don’t let that stop you though ;-)
Even if English is not my first language you cannot win a debate with me because you are irrational ... You are a philosophical simplistic mind.... You attack people easily....You dismiss anything which is not in your book.... You are a crusader in an audio forum face it.... People are here to exhange ideas about their audio system and experiments not to be given lesson about blind test.... I can find similar testimonies for people "improving their health" by "grounding themselves magnetically to the earth" with their bare feet.And for the healing power of magnetic bracelets. And for faith healers, and prayer and even phone psychics. This is one expression of your strategy and bad faith dear crusader, putting all phenomenon which you dont approve in the same bag.... And you pretend that it is "science"... You are pathetic my friend.... And by the way for the usefulness of walking barefoot some doctors think that this is good....For sure they will be put by you in the same bag with me and astrologers and all these deluded audiophiles... https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-9099/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-going-barefoot.html It takes one second to look for a positive reason to walk barefoot by a doctor on the net.... Then for your next post keep psychics, astrologers and audiophiles in the bag but exclude this doctor.... Because it dont take a big brain work to know that some barefoot walking can only be good for the health.... This negative decree from you about barefoot walking illustrate well your crusader mentality.... You are a believer not a scientist....You adopt science like other adopt astrologers....I prefer experimenting and not judging others.... I suggest to you barefoot walking because this improve rational thinking by paradoxically putting emphasis in the brain on more sense data coming from the feet....This will relax your crusader mentality.... And before you dismiss this barefoot doctor from you science list.... Read this truly scientific paper about the very usefulness of a study about barefoot walking..... https://jfootankleres.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s13047-016-0166-1.pdf |
Show me exactly what audio thing you "hear at home" that a "naysayer" may criticize, that you think is somehow validated by SCIENCE. Ionizer... Shumann generators... Shungite plate+copper.... These three are not validated official text book science facts for use in audio... Only results of other people experience or for the last one my own creation and experiment only....They work for me and for many people... Then, are we crooks? You are like the pope invoking theology.... And promising to inquistion psychics and astrologers....(it is very easy to point to some validated efficient psychic in history by the way among the crooks, for astrology you dont have a clue anyway) A simple listening experiment of my own is not an official scientific fact for sure but it can work without your papal signature or permission... You are a crusader not a scientist.... You are in the same boat that those believers who negate science...The only difference is the color of your shirt compared to them....Go on warring against audiophile, putting all of them in the same bag for the sake of your dogmatic conception of science.... Go on with your congealed opinions and dogmas.... I prefer simple very simple scientific fact , and experiments that cost nothing... After all no audio book or scientific forum never teach me about my shungite use in audio.... Is this a proof that i am an idiot or a crook? No it is a proof that i am creative and only crusaders believe with a pair blinders....I am not a believer even in science.... Science is there for teaching us to do more than believing ....And science is there to be used but NEVER to be believed...You can use Newton laws but you dont have to believe them to be ultimate gospel.... They are not.... By the way all audiophiles here are different of one another, labelling them is not rational.... All alleged scientists here are also different, labelling all of them with the qualification of "voice of science" is irrational... Science facts are there to be used or negated or modified and experimented with..... A decree against audiophiles or psychic is James Randi science.... a show..... |
I myself experiment ONLY and have bought no costly "tweaks" and upgrades, using , listening experiments, with homemade controls in the mechanical, electrical,and very importantly, in the acoustical embedding dimension of my audio system....
All my results are inspired by simple science facts (Helmholtz resonators and diffusers in my acoustic settings for example and damped springs for vibrations), or complex psycho-acoustic research to create my imaging effect, and also by simple experiments with cheap unexplained working artefacts (schuman generator, ionizers, shungite+copper plates and other controversial means).
Is it not science spirit to experiment like i did?
My goal was not publishing a paper in a peer reviewed journal, then i never need organized blind-test like claim some crusaders here...Selling no cost creativity is not selling costly products and boasting about them...
My goal was to prove that with a relatively modest system we could achieve great results at PEANUTS cost....Against all the marketing conditioning, i used simple science and experiments...
Then some "pseudo-scientist" could come here and had come, mocking me, and asking for a blind test.... 😁
Objectivist/subjectivist debate for me are ridiculous and child like.... But i prefer those who use also their ears to those who read only dials to create their audio room...Acoustic is a science where ears are not replaceable soon...
For the science debate i will not add anything.....Save this Goethe quote below, written 150 years before Thomas Kuhn...
If you wait for science or religions to understand your life you will wait very long.....😁
Use you senses and couple them with your brain....
Meditate.....Experiment....Or experience....
By the way, listening music,we dont need to prove anything, only to hear the changing sounds....Those who need proofs here are the marketers of new products or the zealots pseudo-scientist crusaders that want to save humanity from buying a product that they believe is useless...I myself dont need one or the other kind of people, because i dont plan to buy anything soon, i prove for myself that audiophile experience is possible at low cost.... Call that a delusion if you own a 500,000 audio system.... My 500 bucks system is not on the same level for sure but not so far from it in quality that most would believe.... The truth is that it is better to read simple acoustic science than buying costly products...
« History of science is science itself»- Goethe |
There’s no right or wrong but this idiotic idea science is useless in analyzing electronics and transducers in the human audible range is nonsense Your notion of science is TOO limited... Psycho-acoustic science is not electronical analysis .... Hearing is the basis of psycho-acoustic phenomenon analysis.... You cannot predict what an audiophile will like, replacing his ears by ONLY electronical analysis...This is technological idolatry... You are like those who negate science, save you confuse the complex scientific analysis with technological simplistic views of your own... Audio is not REDUCIBLE to electronical tools....Audio experiuence and experiments is for Brain/ears not mainly for microphones... I based my own experiments with my ears ON science facts, but i do not replace and never replace the testimony of my hearing by tools or numbers... I used them not BELIEVE them.... Science can help us to walk, but cannot do the walking for us... Maps are not reality..... microphone are not ears.... Etc.... You are like someone who need a scapegoat: an objectivist need a subjectivist like 2 neighbours who like to kill one another.... Enjoy your game... I prefer psycho-acoustic science....With psycho-acoustic science minimalistic facts and experiments, any investment in electronical costly upgrade was useless for me now.... Science spare me much money.....Objectivist or subjectivist faiths are costly audio marketing religions in audio forums.... Sorry..... |
Science cannot replace hearing...But hearing cannot replace science and technical tools....
This is the reason the measures controls of "psycho-acoustic science" which science is not physical acoustic, are not about the measuring results apparatus "per se" but about the CORRELATION between measures of all kind in acoustic physics, neurological and measures and reaction time and psychological human hearing...
I used for examble the reflective acoustic measures and numbers and their relation and their timing with the reverberation time in MY room with MY ears to create a no cost diffusive surfaces and reflecting one to modify and completely recreate the sound imaging in my room not only between speakers....
Without the experiments made in psycho acoustic laboratory in Japan, i would have never been able to think that it was possible...
Science ? YES but which one?
Heraring ? YES but with listening experiments yes, guessing only NO....
Then those who when they speak science speak about electriucal measures ONLY are ignorant...
Those who negate the measures used in psycho-acoustic laboratory are also guilty of ignorance...
Like in politics and like in school-yards, warring is acting like binary minded apes, sorry....
I refuse to be labeled by idiotic names.... Either political one or audio one like "subjectivist" or "objectivist".... |
Welcome back Mahgister!
Thanks for your friendship.... And patience with me.... My best to you..... |
I had used psycho-acoustic science in audio with greater profit and impact than i would ever think possible...
There is no "science" by the way.... Save for a very general accepted methodology uniting all fields ...
There is only "sciences" in the plural with each one field cumulating a big amount of data unrelated to all the other field for the most part...
«History of science IS science» Goethe dixit 150 years before Thomas Kuhn....
This explain why most here underestimated psycho acoustic science impact for audio and read only impedance measures and other electronic market design guide...
This is the same problem with mechanical control of vibrations which is a problem almost on par in importance with the design of the system part themselves ...
Samething with the underestimated necessity of the electrical floor noise control...
I just finish my last improvement...
I damped my springs grid for peanuts one week ago and with a result which is very powerful and i affirm it, on par or almost probably with other very costly product....
I finished my last diffusive device control at no cost...With a more powerful impact than my other devices save the Helmholtz diffusers...
Improving with minimal scientific facts then my 500 system which now sound too much good to be described and believed...
Many self appointed scientists here ignored not only the hypothesis /observation experiment i used myself for most of my embeddings controls, but they confused it with placebo delusion by ideological ignorance of acoustic and other fields...
Basic elementary facts were my only guide.....And the hearing human system described by experimental psycho-acoustic science....
My 500 bucks system is enough for me after comparison with anything i listened to ever in my life...It is not the best at all, but only one of the best ever in quality price/ratio and it is enough for me....
Think about that...... No need of marketing conditioning of consumers by reviewers or maketers for those able to think.....And using their ears .....
I hope to give hope to newcomers and catalyze creativity....I dont want to promote branded name products....All people did it....And reading that costly products were the solution never helped me....Creativity and the simplest science fact are more useful....
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Mahgister, your legs may be doing the walking but your brain is controlling the show. So many things happen when you walk that you are totally unaware of. Your arms swing and the muscle attached to your pelvis tighten to keep the opposite side from falling when you pick your legs up. Same is true of hearing. You completely missed my point and answered back with a common place fact.... « If there is millions of neurons in the guts we can think of the guts to have a brain of their own, it is the same for any organs even the ears, then we can say that the brain is all over the body, and we can say that the body is INTO the brain»-Anonymus Smith To understand read Wilder Penfield... And you completely missed the point of frogman and answered in the same way with a common place fact... music is NOT sound.....music is a spiritual life.... Sound is not..... In this case it is not "bad faith" from you, it is plain to see that your nose is glued on the floor.... I am sorry for you.... I apologize for my rudeness.... I am too passionnate.... |
Science has to be applied. That’s what engineers do. Science has to be created and studied with thinking experiments and perceptions... Any application come after that and will exclude something and include something else in it, it is a trade-off exhange...It is an art with freedom... Engineers applied some rules derived from science but there is a trade-off at each walking pace, then engineering is like medecine an art also.... Great engineers are artist not just scientific mind... They are able to improvise and able to navigate all trade-off choices.... It is the reason why Henri Poincaré whom was at the same time one of the greatest mathematician and physicist of his century was proud MAINLY to be an engineer first and last... He was consulted as so in a great mine disaster for which he did the complete analysis...Science applications not only mimic art but are an art in itself....Leonardo Da VInci amalgamate the two like Michel- Angelo.... |
Human ears don’t interpret and perceive sound the brain does. For sure you are right .... But When i walk it is ME who walk, not my legs or only my brain... In the same way I interpret the sound to be music for me because my ears and brain act as one... In a word "distinguishing" does not mean "separating".... « If i understand your ears can think and your brain listen ?»-Groucho Marx 🤓 « If there is millions of neurons in the guts we can think of the guts to have a brain of their own, it is the same for any organs even the ears, then we can say that the brain is all over the body, and we can say that the body is INTO the brain»-Anonymus Smith |
Quite often people have preferences for flaws in equipment that isn’t neutral. Precisely what is interpreted like a flaw by an engineer can be a positive for a listener... It is because here there is 2 level of experience that ask to be correlated in the best way possible :the design engineering one and the listening experience...But the correlation process is dynamical measurement process between many dimensions and between many parameters in each dimensions, not a static definitive process once and for all under all aspects... Even neutral is an asymptotic point or direction not a fixed reality.... That’s different from from saying that we can’t measure what’s going on You explained very well in the case of amplifiers some CORRELATION between harmonics level and perception and the trade-off choices laid in front of the engineer... But the perceptive experience is related to acoustic and to many other dimensions with all different parameters .... Audio is a field related to many, many scientific fields and subfields and you know that way better than me... Then there is scientific rational rules to use but no simple TRUTH reducing human experience to only rules and replacing all POSSIBLE experiments by only one.... Sometimes a simple experiment speak volume in an imprevisible way.... This is the reason why there is improvement coming from all directions.... Science will alway be the starting point and human experience and freedom the endpoint... Save for those who put their hope in the replacement of man by machines and the replacement of freedom by laws...But reading you i know that you are not one... My best to you.... |
Of course, one could make judgements and opinions of the sound - that’s a starting point, not an end point. Good post.... Not only we can interpret the sound of this amplifier experience but we will interpret it differently in different conditions...The fact that electronic design can produce good amplifier does not means that there is ONE only good amplifier for ALL ears at ALL ages and with different histories... And in perception what one will call illusion for one will be reality for another one...Any perception is a mix of illusion and reality....The eye/brain create the perception of space for example.... It is simple to understand that through any perception we relate not only to what "seems" a static EXTERNAL object but we participate to an experience that create in a way many aspects of the phenomenon for us.... It is relevant for ALL phenomenon but to different degree... A table is a table in a room different for each one of us, even if we all accept that this is the same table, but a table is not a table in the same way that a wave is a sound interpreted and translated in a specific qualitative experience by the ears/brain at some moment the qualitative diffreence between the experience of an object and a sound could be more intimate and personal.... Nevermind the good correlation between the electronical design and the relation to the way the ears perceive the results, the experience itself cannot be accounted for by numbers and measures only....Even adding acoustical and psychoacoustical laws to electronical design... In this debate objectivist versus subjectivist is for sure children play and not a wise division.... Because in perception that make no sense nor in science.... |
All humans use the same hearing perceptual rules. For example, to sense sound pressure all human’s ear use the higher ordered harmonics. All human’s ears have a masking principle and so on. You are absolutely right.... And it is IMPOSSIBLE to contradict that... But the way human ears INTERPRET and PERCEIVE the sound experience in a specific room with specific gear is different for each of us... It is the reason why in the publicity of the marketing of electronical equalizer company recommend it to make any consumers free to use it for different kind of music, different room, different TASTES.... Then affirming that there is a precise CORRELATION between electronical design and human perceiving experience is one thing and very true, but true also that no ears/brain will interpret exactly in the same qualitative terms all the conditions of a sound and musical experience... This is why there is so good choices between so many different types of gear... In my post then i was speaking about ALL factors and parameters in an audio experience not about the correlation between gear measurements and sound experience ONLY which is a fact of engineering like you had explained it very well in another post about amplifiers.... Perception of a color is the same for all human by law of physical optic, but many other parameters are at play that make the experience transcending optical physical law.... Psychological and neurophysiological laws and personal histories add also their weight... It is Goethe who created neurophysiology of perception arguing against some limititations of Newton approach...The 2 goals of these 2 geniuses were DIFFERENT more than contradictory.... This is the same here....We have physical acoustic and psychoacoustic and the listener personal history....My post was about all that and were not a negation of the correlation bewtween measures and perception which is the basis of all audio technology... On the other end reducing human perception to electronic design is NOT possible for the time being....Correlating is not reducing....In a word all factors pertaining to the audio experience and interpretation cannot be put in the design... |
Can anybody please tell me what Magister is talking about? He lost me several posts ago. Must be my dyslexia. Dont make of a possible useful tool a UNIQUE solution for all acoustic problem and for all people.... Helmholtz mechanical equalization work differently than electronical equalization without the SAME limitations ... Instead of a tone frequency response for static walls and for a microphone feedback.... Imagine a large bandwith response (an instrument timbre) crossing different dynamic pressure zones of the room FOR YOUR EARS feedback Now instead of the buttons and dials of your E.E. imagine the tuning by mechanical modification of the ratio volume/neck lenght-diameter of each Helmoltz resonators.... Instead of listening to the electronically modified frequency response of the speakers imagine you listen to the tweeters and bass driver of each speakers marked out by many resonators mechanically modified so and localized so to help each ear to compute the direction of the sound and the way each eraly and late reflections will constitute each firt wavefront for each ear.... Then instead of creating a sweet spot which have an accuracy in millimeter with total chaos and no more usefullness out of this narrow spot which become no more sweet at all, Think about a modification of ALL the room resonances with the introduction in many well choosen spots of a set of different pressure engines (helmholtz resonators). The results: acoustic controls at will of imaging,soundstage,listener envelopment and source width and more importantly a control of the timbre experience which is music itself and no more only "sounds".... BUT nothing is perfect.... It may be not practical for a living room BUT it is acoustically superior to control the room for the speakers instead of changing the speakers in relation to the room... We can use the two for sure, but advising people about electronical equalization ONLY AND MAINLY without speaking about his limitations is not the way.... And human ears dont listen TONE, they listen TIMBRE.....In music for eaxample a "tone" is a pitch perceived by the ears listening to a singer voicing it with his unique timbre.... Electronic is not acoustic and cannot replace it and acoustic is not music experience and cannot replace it ....They can be only relatively translated in one another... Also mechanical equalization is more natural and less costly.... Then instead of making fun of me instead of arguments try to think out of your user manual booklet.... |
audio 101 for children:
-measurements are essentials to know what we are speaking about and establishing recognized scientific standards designing electronic piece of gear....
- Listenings experiments is the ONLY way to tune and fine tune the quality we ask for and which qualities are IMPOSSIBLE to deduce only from any set of measurements nevermind how big it is and how precise...
Why ?
Because many dimensions are at play which no limited measuring tools in their range of application can take into account simultaneously when what is designed is designed FOR ANOTHER HUMAN EARS....
Then audiophiles and engineers trusting only measurements must be rare birds indeed ....
We are not all zealots of our own tool for sure....And most importantly deaf audiophiles and deaf engineers are very rare species.... |
I cannot say better than the last 2 posters....
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Science is the starting point of spiritual evolution, and a railing against extremism, science is not an endpoint of the road... Only scientism claim to be this endpoint....But science is not scientism... The departure point and the railing is NOT the road... Here a video analysing a stupid scientist experiment working now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFm2lRRJNi0 |
Take 100 people, who have hearing that "measures well" (Really good hearing)
Spend a year teaching those 100 people how to listen and what to listen for.
Teach them to understand critical listening. In the same way a sommelier would be educated.
Sit them down and have them do blind listening tests with the differing amps that have the same posted specifications.
And watch how they can differentiate between those amps...,
Very right ... I will add that first music is a listening experience where there is no object (sound) which could be separated from the room//Ears/ in that order, and evaluated MAINLY with an electronic tool instead of the ears... Basic psychoacoustic science which is a science connected to physical acoustic but different with DIFFERENT goals must not be confused with it... Some badly misinformed people reduce even physical acoustic to electronic, not knowing then what is psychoacoustic anyway... To hide their ignorance they promoted blindtest to debunk any audiophile experience beeing a "bias" without knowing what is a bias and WHEN do we must erase it from an experiment .... Because they really think that the taste of the soup is explained mainly by the different materials constituting the saucepan and the temperature to be set...This claim is even not untrue....But proposing always ONLY to consider the materials adavantage of different saucepan and temperature for an explanation of the "particular" taste of a soup is very limited to say the least...The ingredients(acoustical conditions and other parameters) play a more significant role sometimes in the experience... |
I made hard work....
I created the Helmholtz mechanical equalizer and this made me understand the way the audio field is in many ways oriented often by market and profit...Not much by education and listening experiments....
Room acoustic active mechanical control MAY be so powerful, NO PIECE of gear upgrade compare...It is a scientific fact by the way....
It cost nothing...
It is Pure proved science only, first by Helmholtz....
BUT i created also other devices that work AT NO COST, and mocked by idiot who think science has an "opinion" and they make this alleged opinion their own in an act of belief that will refuse even a simple experiment...
And these idiot buy upgrade at hight cost and called that a scientific educated act compared to my no cost experiment...
I am "special" indeed like all of those who are not programmed and conditioned by "scientism" and other market myths....
I am not a fad of crowd, especially crowd of self proclaimed scientists in audio thread hobbyist denigrating anyone to be gullible or in placebo state and refusing blindtest.......I dont need blindtest....I am not a marketing company or a pharmacological industry .... Blackbox experience is enough for my hobby...
Audiophile experience may cost peanuts....With only discarded junk and brain work with simple common sense facts....listening experiments .... And Helmholtz....
Those who claim otherwise are rich, and able to buy the best engineering....I am not in this case and anyway i dont need neither money nor upgrade now.... My brain worked well and it is enough....
Be special, trust your ears and trust your creativity....Dont listen to those who downgrade any personal effort in the name of their favorite idol : "science" or the market, and their own costly toys.......
At the end you will not listen to the best audio system in the world for sure, but it is enough for me if it is one of the best in the ratio S.Q. /price....
That was my goal....
«At the end those who discount science are not those who ignore it, but those who revere it like an idol»-Anonymus Smith
«Dont be rational to the point your reason could die of loneliness on his island»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
I don’t meet the requirements for "scientism" if anything I would be considered a reductionist. When it is a methodological stance reductionism is "genuine" experimental hypothesis that simplify and make possible many experiments ... When it is an ontological belief like you claim it is, this is basic scientism at work... Especially in an audio thread among hobbyists, where reductionism, being only scientism in disguise, is used to reject any claim which are without "scientific proofs", which is a ridiculous demand not prorportionate with the activity of hobbyist partaking their simple experiments...Especially when the experiment to be perform are simple and at no cost....Rejecting the experiment is "faith" in some alleged idolatry of " science" and then not science.... Further more human perception is a "WHOLE" not reducible to parts, which psychoacoustic science for example study and correlate to measurements but never reduce to them....It is a methodological reductionism here.... Stubborness is not intelligence...Defiance is not rationality....Distrust being compatible with idolatry of technology and rejection of any trust in human perception in the name of some alleged measurements presented to be the ONLY "science" is borderline ridiculous. |
Proposing a simple experiment is not "claiming" something...
Insulting people is claiming our own stupidity.....
And my simple experiment was proposed in the context of this Galileo anecdote for illustrating it in a simple way...
Belief versus experiment....
Guess was the result save your insult?
An illustration of the way the zealot brain work....
I dont believe in "science" like yourself, i do my own listening experiments,i try to think with science then, i dont buy "tweaks" and i create all my device homemade or at almost no cost....
And by the way without being credulous i take the word of other with good faith and even trust here...Simple manner and simple openness of the mind....
If you report an experiment of yours i will listen, it is an audio thread about impressions and experiments... if you parrot "scientism" mantra to discredit experiments or someone i will go my way....
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That isnt science. In order for your experiments to be considered science certain protocols need to be followed.
Our gear in our room is not a laboratory... If i claim something about shungite and quartz you MUST TRY IT YOURSELF... Claiming that no room is a laboratory is a common sense affirmation that could not justify a refusal to experiment BY YOURSELF... Using scientific attitude could be possible out of a laboratory... We dont search for new scientific law here.... We discuss child experiment in audio.... |
If anyone cares to present any new evidence science would be more than happy to look through the telescope. put a big chunk of shungite on your amplifier... Put a quartz cristal on the same spot... Listen and report your result comparing the two experiments... This is science... All ridicule are from zelots... By the way no need of blindtest for this simple expêriment for now... Invoking a blindtest BEFORE taking the experiment is stupidity... |
The most significant factor contributing to the sound of the speaker is it’s frequency response in your room. Next would be it’s dispersion/radiation pattern. IMHO every audiophile should have a calibrated microphone and the appropriate computer program to run some basic tests. What you say is half truth... We can also study with our EARS the more large bandwith response of the room to the non-electronically modified speakers... Then instead of tuning the speakers response for a very limited range in millimeter FOR some location out of which all measures means no more anything, we can tune all the room at once FOR the speakers by using a grid of Helmholtz pipes and tubes which are by itself permanently a room tuning at NO COST.... I control all aspect of sound acoustic at will, like a piano tuner tune a piano...A room is not only a set of passive walls waiting for the frequency response waves to bounce on them and on the microphone , it is an organized set of pressure zones affecting the ears which we can modify at will ....I can use for each ear the wavefront of each speaker and buoy the room with each pipes and tubes for EACH ear differently making easier the creation of imaging, soundstage,listener envelopment, source width and improve timbre perception....I can use the tresholds timing of early and late reflections ratio increasing the perception of 3-d localization of the music... Science is truth not half truth....Science is NOT technology or one tool only like an electronical equalizer....Science is not only one answer, sometimes many answers are possible...It is Helmholtz the father of modern room acoustic and his equalizer was a mechanical one.... Read WIKI at least, not only your electronical equalizer manual....Try a handbook of acoustic... Any electronical equaliser had negatives, like limit of the tested frequencies, too narrow locations for the measures to be right, the Helmholtz grid dont have these negatives at all... It is less esthetical perhaps....Thats all...All made by recycled trash....I can listen music in nearfied position or regular position with 2 different extraordinary sonic experience .... This is science... Buying an electronic equalizer is consumers expanse for something which is less efficient than a mechanical equalizer... Learning how to tune a room with the ears, fine tuning the ratio diameter/lenght/volumes of each pipes, orienting the neck in the right spot, etc is PRATICAL course in acoustic in a way which reading the owner manual and gliding the cursors of the pre-arranged program of a piece of electronic is not.... An electronic equalizer is a complementary tool AFTER the room is tuned mechanically and with acoustic materials at best.... Not the main tool at all, no electronic equalizer could replace material passive treatment and no more replace the mechanical activation of the room.... |
. Science, it's why we can communicate over long distances and listen to recorded music in the first place.
This common sense fact is invoked suggesting "strawman argument" against someone.... Sorry... Nobody is against science, it is the "zealots" non scientific attitude of suspending judgement that is a religious belief not science itself.. Anyway there is field of science studying life of consciousness after death for example... Science is not materialism, like suppose zealots here... Psychoacoustic study the irreducible meaning of human perception to acoustic law...And establishes new correlations between sound measurements and consciousness each day.... But the goal of psychoacoustic even with A.I. when reproducing human perception is not attributing meaning experience to robots and reducing consciousness to A.I. save for cultist zealots of transhumanism... Transhumanism is a RELIGION not science....And one of the most dangerous and powerful cult on the planet, way more than scientology by the way, who look like children play compared to it... |
An interesting article pertaining to the "know-all’s" on the forum. Scientism | Psychology Today Very interesting thanks.... I read it now.... And i must say at the end that all he say is truthful... |
I’ve kind of covered this a few times recently.
What you are describing isn’t science, it is measurements and technology.
For it to be science it has to evolve, and help connect the measurements to perception or desirability.
Measuring distortion or frequency response is NOT science. It is 70 year old measurements. You said it better than me thanks.... Some dont even know that this CORRELATION between physical acoustic and neurophysiology of perception is one of the most fundamental science for audio: psychoacoustic.... Some more narrow minded even wanted to reduce the study of perception to only pure technology....They wanted to erase consciousness from the perception "equation" and make it pure physical science....... A.I. cultist..... |
Not only there is too much variables and parameters to test for and pounder one against the other.... It is only half of the picture...
But the audio system is evaluated in quality by a particular ears/consciouness...
We do not know what is consciousness related to our world...We use consciousness daily, but why it is? what it is ?, we dont have a clue....For sure we know more than cavemen....I say that for the science cultist skeptic of anything out of his narrow blinders...
We do not know what is water or light ultimately, we use them through the most sophisticated technologies for their specific properties, but why it is, what it is ,we dont have a clue....For sure we know more than cavemen...We know sometimes how....
My favorite example is the distribution of prime numbers, which is a "discovered" fact through the " invention" by men of the symbolic numeral systems, we use primes to lock and define our monetary technology and all internet flow security, for example, but why it is what it is, we dont have a clue.... The only one in this century to have a clueabout primes when asked by Hardy why it is what it is , has been answered by Ramanujan this is the will of God....
Then pretending that science will know, is premature, like for a caveman saying that one day he will compute the distribution of primes while flying to the moon, with only light for wings and only special water to feed himself...
A beatiful story...But having imagination is not having a clue and knowing how, what and especially why....
Technology IS NOT science...
Why is not HOW and how is not WHAT....
Consciousness is the only phenomena which is absolute for all the others to be manifested...
Explaining the why of anything is equal to be able to explain consciousness...
Those who knows are not scientist....Or if they are like Ramanujan or Swedenborg and if you asked for an answer they will say the answer is "love" or "God"....
Ask Swedenborg, one of the great scientist on par with Newton for knowledge....Who even guessed in 17 century, holography and fractal geometry, i read it myself by the way, and who knows everything someone could know in his century....
Or like an ignorant you could disqualify the same answer of two of the greatest mind in the history of mankind : Ramanujan and Swedenborg....And laugh of their identical answer from 2 totally different culture....
And go on in audio thread pleading for measuring a dac or an amplifier to know how it will sound...Or better mock me when i put a piece of shungite on my central electrical panel...
This is how stupid people could be...
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I prefer Puccini.
Then i apologize to you.... Puccini is a God in music.... My best to you.... |
Science explains the music and the gear completely The gear yes .... The music not at all... Music is not only sound sorry.... No more than pitch perception is reducible to physical acoustic... Read about psychoacoustic= physical acoustic and neurophysiology of perception ... After that add music studies which is irreducible to any of the fields i just name.... Science is not a "superstition" or a belief in audio thread that explain anything and everything , it is a complex grid of fields studies without ANY alleged artificial unity save for his rigorous method..... |
No problem I don't listen to Bach.
I am not surprized..... 😊😊😊😁😁😁😊😊😊 |
There is no measuring device as sensitive as the human ear, among other things. I will say this in another way...because it is not "true" written like this... The ears is "sensible" to meaning in sound....The ears is less sensible than some tool for this unidimensional accuracy by numbers, but for accuracy of meaning, which is multidimensional, nothing replace the ears... Any tool live in ONE dimension which is the dimension of his use and parameters of his application... The ears live in many dimension at the same time, which are all linked together by "meaning" for our consciousness.... |
In that regard science fails miserably.
Science dont fail at all...Pseudo scientist fail.... Only those not using their own ears at the endpoint fail...Science do what science did the best: give us great engineering possibilities... |
Consciousness is the seat of sound experience....No tool can replace it... And the ears is at the same time a tool and a learned conciousness of its own...The end point of all other tools in audio...
I am not sure that Bach will be pleased to be listened to only by robots one day after the "singularity event"....They will finely comment the counterpoint i am sure, but about the main motif and motivation of Bach music, the adoration of God, i am less certain....
Oups! i forgot that for our "sunday club scientism skeptic boys" God did not exist, then the robot comentaries will be meaningful no doubt without the non sensical Bach theology....
"Intelligent" Tool producing music and listening to it will be perfect without "subjectivist" ears....
« Audiophile robots dont buy cables»-Groucho Marx
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