"Do you want to know why a multi channel amp, with the same specs as a 2 channel, sound different when listening to a just a 2 channel amp on its own?"
Yes I'd be very interested why.
"As for music in surrond in general ( if that's your question) Is just sounds bad."
The people a few posts up disagree with you, why does music in surround sound universally bad or are you just saying it sounds bad on your system? |
MdHoover,
Can we agree it was my third post that got your attention?
"I do NOT doubt that you are an expert on home theater and surround sound, and I also realize (fully) that I am NOT."
The key to your comment here is the latter part of your statement. I do not know much about "tube rolling" as I don't care for tube amplification all that much. Thus you will not see me engage anyone on the topic other than to ask a question. I've noticed your unabated enthusiasm over your IDS speakers, I never heard them so I cannot comment.
For Landok to jump in this thread I would expect that he has atleast tried several times to make a surround system musical. Instead he offers only a stream of nonsensical comments that no better describe multichannel sound than two channel sound.
Surround sound is not novelty sound anymore than two channel. And Noobs should do there homework and get something better than second-rate second-hand knowledge to debate with. It would be the respectful thing to do, don't you agree? |
Asin,
"it is not as forward or details perhaps due to the loss of resolution on multichannel format."
Actually your brain cannot focus as well on the "little" details that are really unimportant in the end because you are immerssed in such a large soundfield. The resolution of the SACD is equal on each channel whether its 2 or 4 or 5 channels being played back. 2 channel is effectively removing 2/3rds of the ambiant field, it is actually lower resolution.
Why digital sounds so thin in two channels has everything to do with this over focused truncated soundstage and lack of an ambiant field. So for better or worse, your perception is a common one but not for the reasons you attribute it too.
There is no real decoding, except for system adjustment like distance your seated from the speakers.
"24bit/192KHz but multi channel is 24bit/96KHz" may change the sound but not the resolution. |
Landok,
My surround system costs about *$12,000, My home theater? well that's a story of priviledged ownership.
Of course it helps that I built all the speakers and amplifiers but let me note with parts that you can easily buy yourself, the amplifier designs are online for you to build yourself also. I listen to the systems I build to stave off spenind to calm down upgraditis when it itches, since the only way for me to get a better system is to be able to build it better. I'm learning how to make digital dsp crossovers so I can make my speakers better. College courses $3000
Let me note I have heard $8000 complete (DVD player too)surround sound systems outperform $15K+ tube type systems using speakers I felt were very good, and had that confirmed by many others who were equally mystified by the disparity in the qualities of the 2 systems.
I think where you hit a button with me is surround systems don't have to cost an arm and a leg to beat two channel systems. The problem is there is very little support for the end user (who desperately needs to be brought up to speed). Even on enlightened forums like here and AVS, there are precious few people who can begin to make people begin to understand what it takes to make a good surround system for any price. And unfortunately as a perfect example here you can see that these differring views at first are in conflict as common thought makes the thought of surround sound as a serious musical vehicle preposterous.
In a conversation with a speaker designer who is incredibly well regarded on this forum as there are dozens of posts regarding his product currently in action. His words exactly, "I feel a system built around my XXX speakers in a surround system surpass everything I make in my opinion until i'm listening to my larger XXX speakers."
The price difference is the surround speaker system $8000 retail the larger system $75,000+. I protect his identity because of the illogical negative feeling audiophiles have about surround. I don't want to damage his reputation or put him a position to where he has to defend himself.
* When I had a business I used to tell clients that if I could build a better sounding system as a "part time designer" then the products my competition sold (other audio outlets) then why bother with them? When everything we carried was better than what I could build, that was the standard every commercial product had to meet. I used client feedback as my only means of judging how good my designs actually sounded. Many times the clients were unaware that the product they were demoing was built in house until later in the process.
Landok I'm sorry we got off on the usual wrong foot when it comes to these internet boards on this particular topic. Misunderstanding=conflict |
If your pursuit is realistic sound in the home, 2 speakers never was and never will be enough. Why do you think Dipoles are so popular! 2 real, 2 virtual speakers 4 channels!
Even if the instruments are only presented in front, without surround speakers you cannot begin to present the entire recorded event. 2 channel is at best amputation of all electronic and real reverb and delay processing and venue. Whether you thinks its important or not...it is anyway.
Ask any Pro Lexicon DSP processor designer, all reverberation and delay effects are modeled as a 360 degree effect. 2 channel 160 degrees at best.
Amputation of the music and the environment around it. |
The well known illusion of a sweet spot can only be effectively realized with a stereo sound.
Landok, you have never heard a properly setup multichannel system, not only does a multichannel system have a sweet spot there's actually information coming from it.
Fact is you can adjust the sweet spot to you liking with surround. Surround is very misunderstood |
Landok,
"The idea of being able to adjust the sweet spot to your liking hints at creating imbalances within the system."
Well in audiophile terms this would be like using speaker cable to change the sound, the fact that a simple press of a button facilitates change is actually a wonderful thing...well it is when you know what you're doing trust me ;)
I don't have the time to bring you up to speed, but I know what I can do with a surround system would bend you mind to a very uncomfortable angle. Because all of the things you are so certain are true would suddenly be challenged.
People who can setup surround see oppurtunity where you and other 2 channel traditionalist see obstacles.
Surround is not over rated, it is under utilized and in your case simply not understood at its basic level. Keep in mind that I don't listen to discrete multi-channel Cd's I listen too two channel CD's in surround (TMS, Trifield, DPL2) and let me note that my multi-channel systems can play two channel in the same league as ANY two channel system.
I state that just to make you understand that I'm not speaking to you with my 2 year old Denon surround sound system as my primary experience. I have had and technically still do have a very high end 2 channel systems. Probably better than yours. |
Mdhoover,
7 IDS's with that Kimber crossover? would be quite good for a medium sized room. Imagine a soundfield that images the same way on everyside of the room, renderring the ambiance and image of far away concert right in your room!
I have designed many systems using speakers like your IDS's, imagine being completely emerssed In the IDS sound all 7 speakers acting as one, with all the dynamic range advantages of having 7 speakers and perfectly blended subwoofers versus just 2 speakers. I know it unfortunately costs more, but...
that example may just pull you a bit closer to what Eldartford and myself listen too. And help you imagine the minimum level of refinement I require to find a system competent.
Thanks for your thoughts too. |
Landok,
"The violin is a very musical instrument and it is not the same as the human voice enunciating words on the screen."
...only in your mind, my speakers do both with no problem. Infact being able to do intelligable speech is a tough one for many highly regarded speakers. Not a good sign of good performance IMO.
"If surround sound is all around us, as you claim then the point of owning a surround system becomes moot."
I'd be interested in how you would arrive at that conclusion.
My original comment;
Fact is every moment of your everyday life is in surround why not play your music back that way?
This of course refers to the humans ability to discern sound 360 degrees naturally...and as some have mentioned above and below too. So I would say owning a surround system becomes essential not moot but i'd like to hear you input.
PS; my 7 channel music system doesn't have a screen. |
Landok,
I'm sorry you feel I'm talking down to you, but I am attempting to make my message as clear as possible.
I felt I needed to spell out my point succinctly as you seem unable at this time to grasp where I was coming from.
I didn't want you to feel unnecessarily insulted. But you did ask this question after a more than thorough explanation.
"What purpose does a center speaker provide then other than more clarity of oral discourse or dissertation that is in synch with the performers on the screen?"
Let me help you out with an answer because it's in your question...."more clarity", if can make dialogue more clear then it can make the violins in an orchestra more clear too. A center channel is an opportunity not an obstacle.
So.
Let me advise you that unless you can cram 12 years of installation, design and years of research and training between now and your next post you shouldn't waste your time. I KNOW what I'm talking about and there is no clever cliche audiophile end run for you to get around me, nothing you can say that will stump me or even make me take a step back. So don't waste our time with another stab at justification and just get on with it. If you have questions I'll answer, sorry if it rubs you the wrong way but behind this cyber text is an expert in this field and believe it or not there is such a thing. I don't doubt your experiences that led you to your opinion but what I and Eldart. are trying to tell you is that surround has much more to offer than what you have experienced.
Fact is every moment of your everyday life is in surround why not play your music back that way? |
Landok,
There is nothing uncivilized about my post, I was just stating a fact that my two channel system likely rivals or is better than yours.
ERGO;
My experience is equal to yours on what two channel can do, where we disagree is with the finer points of surround sound. So when I say no problem with the image, surround improves the musical experience I have a common basis from which to draw to relate to your experiences with the quality of two channel.
In your case you have not even begun to understand the basics of a surround system. You wouldn't know where to start to build one properly. Nor would you know how to go about determining if the equipment you wished to use would be adequate to the task.
Thus;
You do not own the equivalent surround system to those you are in discussion with, ie Me & ElDart. Which by all sense of good manners means you must concede to our opinion until you have in your opinion researched and gained greater experience in these matters. Eldartford and I are not discussing what we think, we are telling you what we KNOW. Too bad you have had some difficulty discerning the difference.
If you had made a statement that I did not have direct experience with but I had a doubt. Before I got passive aggressive I would check it out and have the politeness to withold my initial reaction until I could confirm or disprove your comment. Funny thing is, I would likely learn something.
Lastly. did you ever consider that the snake oil message here is two channel is good enough? Mdhoover pretty much says it all doesn't he?
"like lemmings packed into shiny metal boxes..." |
