Why do most phono preamps lack XLR input even thought cartridges are naturally balanced?


Seems to me XLR input is the way to go for phono preamps.  Pros and cons for XLR vs RCA phono input?
dracule1

Showing 11 responses by luisma31

Good you mentioned no advantages with the shield Ralph, I was about to send this in the morning before you even answered in the thread and I think this although been mentioned before it is largely overlooked.
I had 1st a Hifi digital system and then I started getting into serious and educated analog. The digital audio community was introduced to a concept to improve SQ on digital rigs, specifically on DC connectors which basically states that a shield on a cable, not connected to any ground but looped at the ends of the DC cable will improve SQ, John Swenson was the engineer mentioning the concept, if it works or doesn't up to you to decide, I don't take sides, with the exception some people started applying this concept to all sort of cables, USB, digital interconnects and SE and XLR interconnects, some reported improvements, I tried these and notice nothing but since there is shielding involved I thought (at the time) it was great.
Fast forward 1 year, got a new preamp from Ralph (Atmasphere) and there is an accentuated buzzing sound on my tweeters, could be heard from 8 ft away, very annoying, my entire rig is balanced XLR. Started analyzing and graphs showed peaks on 120 Hz, 180, 240 and 300 Hz, AC harmonics of course, some of these 15 db peaks some others 30 - 40 db, very annoying. Turned off the entire house, got into a fight with my wife for it, moved things around, added some power conditioners, buzz was there, called Ralph, he suggested an isolation transformer, got one, some improvement, minor, buzz was still there. Ralph asked me to do a few things and he very nicely sent me some plugs and attenuators (at no cost), attenuators worked taming the buzz but at the cost of power as you could imagine,  because of the gain on his pre and amps is high still got plenty of power on the preamp for my speakers so all good there. But me I can't rest until I figure what was wrong, got my spectrum analyzer and scanned the entire house and even the neighbors, nothing out of the ordinary. Got a long extension cord (daisy chaining 4 extensions) and connected my entire system to a neighbor on the other side of the street (with his consentment), same results.
Talked to Ralph on the phone about something else but me being me (annoying asking things) and Ralph being Ralph (willing to explain and educate you with his great knowledge) we mentioned cables used, I use Mogami which he recommends but the topic stayed lingering on my mind for several days.
Sorry for the long rant, getting finally to my point, playing with the Mogami interconnects I noticed no hum, not even the faintest hum with the XLR in place BUT when unplugged one of the XLR's from the preamp and amp on, disconnecting from the pre there was a nasty hum, this is not supposed to happen, then I remembered when ordering these Mogami's interconnects everyone said better to be shielded and at no cost I got them JSSG (looped shield at the ends), there was one guy don't remember where online which told me before all this, for balanced interconnects never get these shielded but since it was only ONE guy I did not.Replaced the balanced interconnects (between pre and amp) with unshielded ones and when unplugging one end the hum was gone, but the buzz was still there.My source DAC was connected to the pre via XLR shielded, looped interconnects and even with the DAC OFF there was buzz, replaced these and the buzz was gone almost completely, turns out not all the balanced XLR equipment out there is "fully differential" or following the balanced standard, Atmasphere's are but the DAC wasn't.
Summarizing and my conclusions.Shielded cables with tricks like loops etc. have A LOT of capacitance, truly balanced equipment won't care but better to have no shields as there are not needed because of the design of these circuits, single ended equipment will suffer from high capacitance with hum, buzz etc.Of course this is what Ralph's have been saying for decades so not so much new here except that now I don't want any capacitance near any of my cables.I'm sorry Ralph I don't think I told you these findings directly but I just discovered this over the last month or so and since it came up publicly in this thread I thought it was best to share.Luis
Forgot this, I understand with turntable to pre interconnect a shield is recommended if single ended or single ended to balanced adapter cable, I am in the process of setting up this, I guess I will find out. Ideally I would like to go straight from the cartridge balanced to my preamp but we will see.
@atmasphere I'll try to have not even a ground but direct balanced all the way from TT to pre
Based on your two posts Ralph (which I just bookmarked because reading it slow makes a lot of sense) I will be using unshielded twisted pair CAT6 on my phono interconnects, not any other audiophile expensive cable, not even Mogami and will see how it goes.
@kijanki
luisma31, If it is not grounded at either end, then capacitance to what? To electrically floating object?
honestly I don't know, I'm not an EE, but the effect of the hum is similar to what high capacitance cables will do, and since capacitors are isolated (just like this cable) I think HIGH CAPACITANCE is right on target




@kijanki note my cable is not "grounded" at either end, just looped into itself, hence the crazy capacitance
@oldears
DIN to XLR phono cabl e
I thinkg this is what I'm trying to accomplish and this would be "truly balanced" 5 pin DIN from TT to 2x XLR balanced on the pre


Just be aware in my case, with balanced interconnects, the hum was present ONLY when unplugging the connector from one side as I described, when both ends were plugged there was no hum. Replacing the interconnects with no shield cables no hum no matter what.
Please read my initial post again, I have described my digital rig not TT connected (yet)

I described hum with a shielded balanced cable when unplugged from the pre side, when an unshielded cable was used there was no hum, my understanding is the shield adds capacitance and IMO is not needed and undesirable.

@kijanki I'm fine, buzz and hum are gone, the point I was making is that shield although indeed blocks RFI / EMI could create other problems which balanced lines really don't need.
Dear almarg:
Your posts and advice deserves historically (at least from my perspective) a complete and proper answer.

If I am interpreting correctly (and I’m not sure that I am), I believe Luis is saying that completely disconnecting the "looped," shielded, and balanced preamp-to-amp cable from the preamp (not just disconnecting the shield) resulted in hum and buzz. 
Correct
While doing the same thing with an unshielded cable resulted in buzz but no hum. 
Not exactly, the unshielded cable poses no hum and no buzz (on the true balanced connection) as tested

And replacing the "looped," shielded, and balanced DAC-to-preamp cable with an unshielded one essentially resolved the remaining buzz. 
Correct


Also, I believe that when Luis refers to a shield being "looped" he simply means that it is not connected at the corresponding end. 
Also correct, looped means the cable shield is not connected to ground at one end as usually should be, but connected to itself at the ends by means of an external wire or outer added shield over the cable jacket which is isolated from everything else. JSSG for wire loop or JSSG360 for external braid loop.

If those interpretations are correct I would not attribute the differing results to differences in capacitance
Well I'm not an EE but somehow I thought the cable jacket will resemble and act as a dielectric and the shield will get "charge" as a capacitor hence increasing the Mogami speced capacitance for such cable, but I could be wrong on my assumptions.
I can certainly envision that a cable of any type hanging off of the input of a component, while not being connected to a signal source, could result in hum as a result of EMI effects
My actual testing with an unshielded cable showed no hum or other effect. Of course to have rigorous testing I should have tested a shielded cable not looped over itself but shield connected to ground at the ends "mea culpa"
As I and others have said in past threads it is often ***very*** easy in audio to attribute an observed difference to the wrong variable. And that is especially likely to be the case when the observations involve a very limited number of components, cables, and circumstances. I believe that in this case differences in cable capacitance were not the cause of the observed differences. 
You are correct I did not "used" all the available variables, now the shield loop in the cable it is my understanding it will affect capacitive coupling per the article below

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwio...
Note that I am not a John Swenson detractor, it is completely feasible that the looped shield on certain specific applications (DC cables, signal cables, digital cables etc) and with certain signals/currents (DC, AC, digital streams etc) could provide some "enhancement" (I would even dare to say tone control) on certain cables and possibly be of detriment on others.

I think we have deviated enough from this thread :)

My conclusion for balanced connections on my equipment (per manufacturer's recommendations) standard Mogami console cable with no tricks will do the trick :)
And this is one of the reasons I wanted to go "seriously" into analog as well, digital is "so convenient" but "so hard" to get it right and there is just no real reference on what to look for that I decided to listen to both (without spending a fortune)
OMG I hijacked this thread, my apologies to the OP, I will shut up now