Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??


How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker

Showing 1 response by goyescas

The simple answer, I think, lies in the manner in which either package, as a whole, is able to assist in the control of unwanted vibrations and resonances.

Beyond the package itself (Thorens/Ortofon v Rega/Grado), one must take into account the actual environment in which the package is deployed. Acoustical/airborn/structural vibrations can wreak havoc on even the most expensive analog front-ends. Some effect the suspension, others the cartridge and arm interface, and so on.

Whether a function of the "package" - in this case the T/O or R/G - or the environment, vibrations and resonances all add or subtract colorations. Hell, you probably already know all this, but for the sake of anybody fairly new to all this, well I thought it was worth pointing out.

BTW, when I first read your initial post, I was surprised the Thorens did not sound BETTER than the Rega, which inherently requires a great deal better form of isolation than your Thorens does.

Your particular Thorens benefits from design features that appear in the top of the line tables from Thorens (an isloated suspension, for one), while the Rega...well, it's just a Rega, the alternative table from the 1980's for those who did not want to fuss around with suspensions like those found on most Thorens or any of the AR's, including the (1984) $300 AR Turntable which, once set up and in the right environment, really does outclass the Rega in measured performance. Too bad the motor and bearing on the AR tables were not of a better class (thankfully Merril et al came to the rescue with aftermarket mods that both made perfect sense and worked!).

Removing the fairly decent arm from the Rega, be it the RB250/300/600 or 900, and mounting it on the Stock AR ES-1 or EB-101 proved this point. The infantile but nevertheless shocking dealer demo in those days consisted of taking a very heavy rubber mallet to the base of the AR as it played...a clear method if there ever was one of showing how well the platter and arm were isolated from the base!

Good Vibrations All Around,

-Kurt