2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker

Showing 5 responses by eldartford

eldartford
4,262 posts
 
I use an old and "rejected by audiophiles" Sony PS X800 direct drive linear biotracing turntable/arm. I find it to be flawless. The Shure V15MR pickup (also a vintage design)is not quite as nice as the Ortofon MC that I once had, but the replaceable stylus is a big convenience.

The following are the problems that I encounter with LP's, in order of importance.
1. Halfway through the LP the sound often deteriorates, and I must get up and clean fuzz off the stylus. (The integral brush of the Shure V15 pickup helps, but isn't perfect).
2. Low frequency rumble that is in the record groove, not added by my turntable. This I know because a few LPs are OK. (I have an elaborate subwoofer system, really measurably flat to 20 Hz).
3. Surface noise. Cleaning helps, but if you think it completely solves the problem you are kidding yourself.

None of these problems are the fault of my record player, and could not be corrected by newer and more expensive equipment.

DBX-processed LPs, which enjoyed a brief existence just before CDs arrived on the scene, completely solved #2 and #3, and also enhanced pickup performance by limiting the dynamic range of groove modulation. You vinyl enthusiasts really missed the boat when you let that technology die.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lugnut....no offense taken.

I clean records from time to time, and use the brush before each play, but I can't see going to extremes. I live in the real world where there is dust in the air, and it gets attracted to vinyl. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the degradation that even a tiny ball of fuzz can cause, and perhaps I am too quick to look for fuzz when there might be some other problem (like a well worn LP).

As you say, surface noise may vary with different pickups. Apart from the higher tracking force of MC which probably helps with debris in the groove, frequency response must be a factor. A peak in the surface noise range would accentuate it, while a dip would surpress it. The Shure V15 measures flat by all accounts.

Perhaps I am lucky, but I have never had a CD that developed a play problem because of scratches. Some CD players are more tolerant than others. (I have gotten new discs that had defects, sometimes invisible, that aborted playback).

The low frequency rumble that I mention exists on most records, and can be seen as cone motion even if you can't hear it. For some records it pretty much goes away between cuts, suggesting that it is in the recorded groove. One known source (well below 20 HZ) is air conditioning in the recording studio, but that leaves open the question of why it doesn't show up just as much on CD's. Perhaps digital recordings effectively remove anything below 20 HZ, although they certainly do remain flat to 20 HZ.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lugnut...Now you remind me, feedback is another problem with LPs (that doesn't affect CDs) and which hasn't changed in 20 years. My feedback (yes I admit to some) is mostly what comes through the air and excites the record like a drum skin. I have never found an effective record clamp which might help in this area. The turntable is heavy and has good vibration isolating feet, and is mounted in a very solidly built alcove. I can tap quite hard on the shelf (cork surface) and not get anything significant through the speakers.

Just to put things in perspective, my rumble problem really isn't worse than other systems, it's just that it is apparent after playing CD's where the LF is completely clean. Perhaps I run the volume louder than most folks.

In my first post I tried to identify weaknesses of the LP media that are inherent in the media, and therefore not likely to have changed in the last 20 years, per the original question.

Again, I bring up those DBX records, which really could have produced a dramatic improvement. Am I the only guy who had a DBX setup? Am I the only guy who even remembers them?

eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Zaikesman... Thanks for ideas.
The Shure V15 MR pickup stylus is line contact.
The turntable is exceptionally well isolated from mechanical feedback. Acoustic feedback is more evident. Cartridge/arm resonance could exist. I will load the arm up with some mass (balanced so as to not affect vtf) and see if anything changes. I really think it is recorded in the groove because it starts when the recording starts, but before the musicians do their thing. It really sounds like air conditioning system noise in the studio. It's not on every record, and I am probably overreacting, but it does annoy me after listening to CDs.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Zman...
I seem to remember that it was Shure who introduced the idea of the bi-radial (eliptical), and (even better) fine line stylus. MR means "micro ridge").
I will give a listen or two with the brush raised. I suppose that the brush could generate noise as it sweeps over the record, but I suspect that the crud that it keeps away from the stylus is more significant. This may depend on how clean the record is to begin with. Also, I think that the brush is supposed to contribute desirable damping. The VTF effect of the brush is 1/2 gram. By the way, the stylus in use is a new one-less than 5 hr use on it so far.

My arm/pickup (linear tracking) will track well (no breakup on test record) with vtf as low as 1/2 gram (the minimum setting) but I generally use 1.5 to 2.0 grams, which includes 1/2 for the brush. Shure suggests 1.5 grams.
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