2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker

Showing 7 responses by dougdeacon

dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Not to start a fuss or anything, but there have been significant advances in at least some areas of analog playback in the last 20-25 years. Cartridges especially.

Come over to my house and listen to my 25 year old TT/arm with a 20 year old MM cartridge. All three were pretty good pieces when new. To be fair, let's install a brand new replacement stylus and let it break in. Sounds pretty decent you say, and I'd agree with you.

Now I'll swap in my new Shelter MC cartridge. Let's make things tough for the new kid. The stepup trannies haven't arrived yet, so the Shelter is seeing improper loading; and of course my phono stage doesn't really have enough gain. Even with these two arms tied behind its back, the Shelter will blow you away and stomp any old (or new) MM cartridge into the dirt. We are talking night and day, Helen Keller's toes would be tappin' differences.

To say there's been no progress in analog reproduction is simply untrue, and to denigrate those who've achieved it by saying they lack engineering ability is both untrue and unkind. It's all about the music. Whatever you like, you like. If you don't like what someone else does, all you have to do is not listen to it.

Peace.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Tom's answer covered most of the bases, as usual.

Start by normalizing the cost of the old rig for twenty-three years of inflation. Let's assume a 4% annual average. $580 x 1.04^23 = about $1,430 in current dollars.

Then throw in another 50% for the economies of scale available in 1980 that don't exist today, as Twl explained. I think that's conservative, their volume has certainly declined by vastly more than that, but we'll go with it. $1,430 x 1.5 = $2,145.

So we're comparing a $2,145 Thorens/Ortofon rig with a $2,475 Rega/Grado rig. One wouldn't expect either of two so closely priced setups to stomp the other. Twl said, "I don't think that the Rega was sufficiently enough of an upgrade over the Thorens." These figures bear him out.

Now you have to decide, do you want better sound or just a better looking system list?!
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Now Tom, be fair. Digital MIGHT get it right. Why any day now musical instruments and human voices could start emitting sine waves made up of tiny, squared-off bits. If we all start talking like Arnold in 'The Terminator', digital sound reproduction will be ideal! ;)
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
I'm relatively new here so I have to ask: why are people who's "knickers get in a twist" whenever they hear the word 'analog' trolling in the ANALOG forum? There's a digital forum, but you won't find TWL or me trolling over there. This behavior is neither helpful nor friendly, and does nothing to further this generally fine community.

The thread starter asked for help with his analog playback system. If you have something to offer him, please do so.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Pbb said, "Unlike AA, I have never seen that Audiogon is actually presented as a folder with numerous tabs. Yes, if one is to start a thread, one chooses such a "tab", but thereafter, and correct me if I am wrong, everything is presented in a seamless way."

Since you are quite mistaken, and requested a correction if so, here it is:

1. Go to the Audiogon home page

2. In the right hand column under "Learn", click on "Discussion Forums"

Your screen will display a list of tabs, among which are "Digital", "Analog" and a variety of others. This thread, obviously, is under the analog tab. This path is the easiest way to quickly find current discussions that interest me. When I was shopping for a CDP I kept an eye on all the digital threads. When I was shopping for a turntable... you get the idea.

Visitors to A'gon who are looking for knowledge in a particular area of audio will find it most easily by navigating in this way. For them to click on "Digital" and read diatribes about the superiority of analog would be just as annoying as the reverse. That's why your post and Bomarc's were out-of-bounds.

As Zaikesman said, your contrarian approach can help the rest of us keep our heads on straight. For that I too commend you. But you reach too far, and so risk losing your grasp on anyone.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Eldartford,

FWIW (probably not much) my old ADC XLM MkII with an elliptical stylus was very sensitive to dust bunnies. The slightest accumulation was audible.

My new cartridge (Shelter 901) seems virtually immune. Yesterday I happened to glance at the stylus near the end of a side. I was shocked to see a small mountain of junk piled on top of the cantilever, with more accumulating visibly at every rotation. (Back off you hygiene fanatics! We're just getting back into vinyl and a RCM is next on the list). Even knowing that it was there, I could not hear any effects from all that crud.

The new TT and arm may also be helping, but that Shelter stylus just tossed junk out of the way and played cleanly the whole time. At the end of the side there were visible piles of stuff all over the last dozen or two grooves, yet I never heard them. I was thoroughly astonished.
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Lugnut,

Thanks for the nice words. Magic it truly is, we are still swooning. Don't get me started or you'll have to endure another bout of joyous babbling. There's certainly been progress in MY phono in the last 20 years! :)

The Teres is shockingly quieter than our old TT, but I know we need to clean. Sigh, I'll go bid on a Groovmaster at ebay. Why can't he just sell the damn things. BentAudio's website has a preliminary announcement about an ultrasonic RCM. No details yet but the concept seems better than brushes and chemicals. Hope they execute it well.

Last night I played a virgin copy of Classic Records' reissue of Stravinsky/'Song of the Nightingale'/Reiner/CSO. There was a silk-thin layer of sonic scum, mold release agents I suppose, over some of the most glorious sonics you ever heard. Arthur Salvatore was right to put this on his list of "demi-gods". No point in damaging it or our stylus, so I won't play it again without cleaning. Once we have a machine, we won't play anything before an initial cleaning of course.

Thanks for the nudge.
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