WHY CABLES MATTER!


I have seen the argument over and over again on why cables matter and the that wire is just wire and how scientifically it’s impossible for them to make a difference. The thing that surprises me the most is that different materials are used. Different shielding is used. Different connectors are used. Different braiding methods of the cables are used. Materials are sourced from different manufacturers and put through different creative processes but I always get some guy who comes on and says. WIRE IS WIRE AND YOU ARE NOT HEARING WHAT YOU ARE HEARING? To me it’s pure arrogance to think you know more than everybody else to the point where you tell me what we are hearing through my ears and we are not smart enough to know when are minds are playing trick on us. But using all these different materials, process and shielding and creative processes don’t make a difference. I spent the last 15 years trying all the cables I could try.  Thoughts anyone?

calvinj

Showing 6 responses by kevn

Hi @smurfstain - it’s been awhile since the last post, but if you’re still following this thread, I wanted to tell you I had a similar experience to yours when I first started out about five years ago. I didn’t really know what I wanted, what was truth or just talk, what actually made a difference to sound quality, or even what sound quality meant. I just knew I wanted facts and truth.

You know, whenever audiophiles say to use your ears to decide for yourself, they’re actually saying something a lot more profound - it’s not always just colloquialism at play.

You see, getting into hifi audio is much like getting an education, albeit one in listening, and hearing. In a similar way photographers learn how to ‘see’ better, an audiophile learns how to hear, and listen better, for nuance, inflection, and above all, timing. And as with a typical education, one cannot just head straight to college, or university - one would not understand a thing that’s going on in there, not having first been through grade school, middle school, and the rest of it. A ‘good’ education builds a solid foundation for all that is  to come.

So, I just started with the purchase of a well-regarded and somewhat affordable cd transport, a DAC, a solid state amplifier (all three from the same manufacturer, ps audio), and speakers that I’d understood could be placed flush against the walls. As with you, I really only wanted to hear the music i had in my extensive cd collection the way it was meant to be heard, through a sound system of ‘quality’. And it was good enough, Basic ‘lamp wire’ cables and all - my most invested cable was the i2s from ps audio to connect transport to DAC - I was shocked that it cost two hundred and twenty five US dollars. But I loved what I was hearing from my system - I was right there, every single evening, listening to my cds in a way I’d never heard them before - that was how good it all sounded : ) 

However, just a day or two into my journey/education, I began to feel that something didn’t sound right, glorious as it was. There was something in there that did not sound realistic, that the performers sounded distant, like a thin cloth separated me from the music. In between my nightly music sessions, I read about nearfield listening, and realised I was sitting in the incorrect location for the specific configuration of my room. A secondary, vital issue involved the design of  my speakers - the Larsen speakers I had bought had been claimed to do away with early reflections for the perfect balance between fitting well into a lounge space, and delivering high quality sound, to the disadvantage of indirect tweeter dispersion. Like many who first started in our hobby, I didn’t want a dedicated listening room with speakers pulled well out away from walls, and I really did not want acoustic panels and room treatments, having read that such is possible with very specifically configured spaces, and under specific listening position locations. Definitely not perfect, but I wasn’t looking for perfection, now, was I?

Sitting nearfield sorted out the realism….for the next week.

I realised shortly after, that I wasn’t hearing the crispness of piano key strikes the way they sound in real life. This particular lack of realism would set me on the ultimate quest which would last the next four years. In the meantime, I got slightly better crispness if I held my head closer to each speaker, Larsens being as undirectional as they are designed to be. And I knew I had to get a more directional speaker for the listening space I was in, and something that would violate my need to have speakers placed flush against the wall. Damn.

And that’s how my education began, as I’m sure many others also have. I moved to the greater cost/realism benefits of a tube amplifier for the depth of sound I wasn’t hearing, and the realistic timbre of voice and instruments my poor solid state amplifier was not delivering. It’s been four years now, many many speaker demos in that listening space and that of my second system and five times as many demos for DAC;, six speakers I’ve bought and three I kept; all kinds of cabling have come in and gone back out; and I’m back to a solid state amplifier, coupled with a solid state preamp that sound more realistic than the many tube amps from CJ, airtight, Aries Cerat, and audio research I’ve demoed for days at any time, in my systems in their specific listening spaces, and with my own ears. The two things that havent changed are my nearfield listening position, and listening spaces with no early reflections - these resolve the most fundamental problems with room acoustics

And that’s the thing, you see, as with an education (demos aside), one can’t return any of it. You cannot just decide you didn’t need kindergarten, really; or primary school with all that basic shit, or even secondary school after that, to just head straight to college. None of the school fees you paid for can be reimbursed, none of your time refunded, not one school bag or school book may be returned. 

Everything was simply part of the education. And sure, your parents might have wanted you to go all the way, but at no time did I think I wanted to finish kindergarten for my primary education, or that for secondary school. I could have dropped out at any time, in fact, leading a life no different from the many others who did so, and are perfectly happy with theirs.

The kicker is, our audio journey is unlike that of education in only one most critical way - we don’t need a parent or someone else to decide for us where to stop. What we do have is our own pure desire to hear and listen more, the limits of ability to develop technical skill in building our listening environments and/or modifying equipment or making our own, and the limits of a bank account - to hell with anyone else who has decided to do it a different way.

So, audio forums, reviews, technical knowledge, measurements, can tell you a lot - together, they create the basis for where you might want to take your next step, or not bother anymore, but nothing alone can tell you where to go or the correct decision to make - and that is what is meant by listening with your own ears, and finding your own decisions. It can be affordable, but do know that getting to a college education, expensive as it may be, is far easier than self-learning to the same degree and level. For most, self-learning takes far greater skill and ability than most of us could ever dream of having - kudos to those blessed few.

 

In friendship, kevin.

@squared80 

my post was about the only system you can improve at no monetary cost, your listening ability - it wasn’t about the money one chooses to spend on cables, a silly issue that imposes your limits, or lack of, upon someone else.

We summarily accept at face value whenever someone says their sense of sight is better than their hearing, or that one has a more developed sense of taste than touch. It is, consequently, very amusing whenever someone makes a claim of snake oil based on their belief that the hearing of others must certainly be as underdeveloped as theirs : ) 

squared80, differences in human beings exist - seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, and listening/hearing ability is different for different people. The good news is that these differences are not usually biological, they’re  psycho-acoustic. This means that one can learn to develop one’s abilities to listen, and thus ‘hear’ better, in much the same way one can learn to observe, or ‘see’ better, in order to depend less on a confirmation biased mind so as to critically ‘think’ better. The bad news is that it means more effort for some of us to develop better listening ability. 

For those truly biologically hard of hearing, I would say what a blessing, not needing to make all that effort to able to listen better, in building their systems. The effort and discipline to create a listening space where only one thing at a time is changed is far more difficult than bringing in that hard earned money to do it. I feel nothing but admiration for those who are more capable and skilled in ways I am not, be it with listening or modifying and building their own equipment and listening rooms that I try to learn from, instead ignorantly criticising others further along in their journey of listening ability in the same hobby we all share.- how idiomatically lazy and  unkind your words are.

Please read my additional post to smurfstain ahead, if you believe that there is always something new to learn. Do ignore me otherwise ; )
 

@mihorn 

Alex, tonywinga’s comment notwithstanding, my post was about sound realism, not natural or unnatural sound. It may simply be a matter of terminology, but I suspect it isn’t. The sound quality of your speakers for their given electronic chain as evident in all your previously posted videos tell me you have created good and decent speakers for their value, but they are still quite far down the scale in relation to realistic sound. By realistic, I mean the same sound waves we all may hear differently internally as individuals, but that we can all identify as realistic, as they all emanate from the same external objective sources. Piano or guitar sound waves don’t change what they are just because we hear differently - realism sounds differently to different people but we will use the same term to describe it. Natural sound, on the other hand, is subject to what your definition of natural is. I suspect you actually mean to use the word ‘realistic’, in which case, your speaker still has some ways to go, however good a value it may be. 
 

In friendship - kevin

@calvinj
Thanks for your kind words, and yes, cables do make a difference. It is a difference I would never have truly learned about, if I hadn’t been fortunate enough to have had access to demo a huge variety of them in the familiarity of my own system and listening space, with my own ears. I have learned from as huge a variety of cables as I have from other audiophiles in relation to what works better for me in bringing more depth, air and timbre to the realism I seek. Just in the domain of speaker cables, this has ranged from affordable supra swords and duelunds, through silversmith fideliums and tellurium Qs, up to Kharma enigma veyrons and nordost Odin golds. My listening experience with USB cables and interconnects is quite varied and comprehensive as well.

I also just wanted to say thanks for not driving your marketing on the forum as unrelentingly as some have. While you’re clearly no Ralph of atmasphere or Duke of audiokinesis, you’ve still practiced some restraint, and it’s not unappreciated. But do try to put your credentials at the end of every post you make, as a newcomer to audiogon might easily miss your affiliation to the commercial side of the industry - thanks again for your contributions : )

In friendship - kevin 

@smurfstain

I am so sorry for my earlier rambling post that caught the wrong kind of attention. What I had meant to say, in response to your very specific original questions, was that learning how to listen is the only way to answer your questions, and no, you cannot just target top-notch equipment to get there - attempting to do so would be the equivalent of heading straight for a college degree without the preparatory foundation of all the lower levels of education before that - you will neither understand nor appreciate what you hear, never mind the fact that top-notch means different things at a variety and range of price points. Education with listening must involve equipment, it is the only means to understand the nuance of music, the time domain. As such, improving listening ability as an audiophile will involve spending money - how much of that, however, will be entirely up to you to decide. And when I refer to an audiophile listening education, I do so in relation to equipment, as there is no other way to achieve this. The thing is, we all know there is a difference between how different equipment sounds - and unfortunately, based on my listening tests with equipment of very different price points, circuit typologies, and makes, there is general but direct proportional correlation between cost and performance. 

The thing is, as another audiogoner had mentioned (funny how we are all goners in this hobby : ) there are no shortcuts, and no refunds for this education in audiophile listening. But there are no mistakes either, contrary to what some of us believe, as learning from a mistake commonly provides the biggest jump in our journey of listening.

Finally, for you and the many others who participate in this forum, I would like to share knowledge that although there is a general direct correlation between cost and benefit in hifi equipment, and exceptions by way of giant killers (smurfstain’s equivalent of topnotch, in a sense) are very very rare in our hobby, they nonetheless do exist. The one that springs immediately to mind which I, and quite a few others here, consider the single greatest value for dollar investment in any system, will cost all of USD399, fully refundable, and it is called the Swiss digital fuse box. It takes the safety function of the fuse out of your equipment and into a small digitally calibrated container that shuts the power down in event of a surge, based on the power rating of the related piece of equipment it is used on. A solid piece of metal called a sluggo replaces the fuse, taking out the bottleneck fuses have been suspected of for a long time now. They offer a super sounding rhodium plated tellurium sluggo at similarly super cost, but the stock sluggo that comes with the fuse box will get you most of the way there. The digital fuse box will need to be connected between your existing cable and related piece of equipment, and a basic non-audiophile c13 female to nema 5-15p male direct adaptor will do the job - https://www.amazon.com/CGTime-Standard-Computer-XH-A03-1-60320-C13/dp/B07HRJKGFD

The impact of the solid sluggo in lieu of the bottleneck fusion is so great, it renders the additional adaptor interface less consequential to final sonic outcome.

Now, most will apply this digital fuse box on their amplifier, in belief that that’s where the greatest current flow and thus improved sound quality, would be most felt. Wrong. The greatest impact is putting one of these (with the correct rating, of course) to your server, streamer, or DAC, or if you have the funds, all three. The effect of adding this device upstream is so profound, it will be heard by the laziest of listeners, and it will fundamentally change everything disbelieved about power, cables and fuses. The Swiss digital fuse makes a joke of audiophile fuses, at a fraction of the cost, while simultaneously putting to rest any false science behind why fuses shouldn’t affect sound quality.

I share this purely as an audiophile, so that you and others too may come to hear the realism possible with whatever equipment might be at hand, and also in hope that other conflicted and similarly less experienced audiophiles may come to understand that not everything at the highest performing audiophile levels is unaffordable, should time and less skill with DIY be of issue.

In particular, this digital fuse is one I have come to realise is not just a tweak the cost of which you will have no need to justify; i believe it will spearhead the sort of technology that will change traditional fuse protection forever. Its basic idea will become a fundamental part of any system in time to come.

I am not a dealer, nor do I earn any kickbacks or favours from verafi audio, the primary distribution source for the digital fuse box. I merely want you and as many wondering audiophiles to hear and understand this one rare ‘affordable’ and giant killing improvement to sound realism.

In friendship - kevin 

@tonywinga 

i think the apology is mine to extend, I am sorry for not speaking more plainly. My use of ‘he term ‘notwithstanding’ was not in disagreement to your post, but in addition and perhaps even extension to it. I do feel too that wavetouch Alex could be more relevant at times, especially since he has something in his speaker that could be developed to a more sophisticated level without any adjustment to price point that might steer away potential buyers. And @mihorn, Alex, please do not take my comments in a bad way, as I do not mean any harm, just constructive criticism that might help your own journey.

 

In friendship - kevin

Oh, and yes, all preferences aside, it would be great for everyone, brothers included, to better understand the relationships of specific context in order to develop a more nuanced sense of taste 😂