Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Don’t be a hater. Be a lover. Yeah! Embrace the void! "But first...are you...experienced?" 😄

 
dynaquest4
Well, geoff, are you saying that cables actually and actively "change" the audio signal. Who would want that? Good audio equipment should neither add nor take away anything from the audio signal. If you want to modify the sound coming from your speakers or the pressure waves reaching your ears, use EQ or modify the acoustic qualities of your listening area.

>>>>No, I'm not saying that. Stop putting words in my mouth!


dynaquest4
If expensive aftermarket cables, are made to approach perfection in audio transmission, wouldn't perfection be doing nothing to the signal while preventing any outside influence from changing the signal?

>>>>You said it, not me. Are you answering your own questions now?

dynaquest4
Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues. But, no...it seems otherwise. The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences. Interesting.

But no one is saying that (only) exotic cables cancel out or mitigate external influences or that that's the reason exotic cables are better. Therefore I suggest gently placing your assertion in the Strawman argument basket.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I kind of doubt anybody with a modest system is springing for uber expensive cables or power cords. Those are for the big boys, the ones with big expensive systems. Of course most of us want bang for the buck.

Of course it won’t turn a BMW into a Ferarri. You have to do everything right. That’s why the ordinary audiophile dude won’t benefit too much from expensive cables or expensive anything in a system that’s not worthy. But in some systems, then you will see the Ferarri. Remember those little VWs with the aftermarket Rolls Royce grill? They didn't really drive like a Rolls Royce.

A good example is wheels, not tires so much. Example: on the 2017 Mustang GT350R, the one with magnetic suspension and the incredible high revving engine, the wheels are an additional $15K over the standard GT350. Why, you ask. Because they are carbon fiber. And because that’s what they cost, retail. I'm only guessing but most likely wheels for Lamborghini and Ferarri cost even more. For reference wheels for the $3M Agera or whatever the new name is are also carbon fiber, made in house. If you’re uncomfortable paying $3M for a car, don’t worry they’re all gone.

Shadorne,

How about providing an example of hyperbole used in marketing of cables? Are you making this up?

Double blind tests have a place in medicine, at least that's what they say. They certainly have no place in audio. At least inasmuch as they actually prove anything about a device under test. 

+1 Dill. You can also call a couple of Dixie cups connected by some string a communication system. These sorts of ridiculous arguments as Randee keeps coming up with only serve to bolster the theory there’s an ever-widening chasm between the Mid Fi crowd and the High Enders.

And those cheap giant killer cables are? .... drum roll....

And those overpriced high end cables are? .....drum roll....

dynaquesr4 
@ dlcockrum: I may have missed your point but I doubt seriously I missed the point. That point is that before people spend hundreds or (even) thousands of dollars on pretty cables with shiney connects, that come in felt bags and wooden boxes, that they are aware of the insideous power of the subconscious that will lead their ears to justify the money they spent on accessories that are incapable of improving audio signals. That psyco-effect is real. To deny it is sophomoric.

No one is saying there is NO SUCH THING as expectation bias or placebo effect or any other psychological phenomenon. But it's folly to believe that all listening is based on these psychological phenomena. That's why there are tests to eliminate psychological issues from the test. That's why we have AB, AB tests, and why we have often prefer long periods of evaluation - to be able to understand the real differences in sound, assuming they exist, and eliminate psychological issues. If you really believe that psychological issues always cloud your judgement in making audio decisions I reckon you have probably psyched yourself out.

Dynaquest4

No worries. here's the explanation of what I posted.

Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct
Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]

Forms
General
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:[5][9]

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.[5][10]

Appeal to Authority Alert!!

"Dr. Waldron has two Phd’s in music and computer science and over thirty years as a recording and mastering engineer. Who do you think I’m going to put credibility in?"

Sorry to say, that just screams Appeal to Authority. You know, an illogical argument. An excellent example, actually.

cheers

Re the "good succinct article on cables"

Obviously it’s not really too hard to find a bunch of audiophiles somewhere who either can’t set up a system correctly and/or can’t hear. In fact, we see it quite frequently right here on Agon. Actually no single test of anything proves anything, I’m afraid. If everyone at the test heard it you could say, well, it was rigged, group hypnosis or peer pressure. 😄

Almarg
So if a silver cable sounds better in a given application than a copper cable, the slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity of silver compared to copper is very unlikely to be the reason.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that silver never sounds like copper, not under any conditions. Of course it would also be fair to say all silver cables don't sound alike. Nor do all copper cables sound alike. Nor do amorphous conductors like carbon sound like metal conductors. 

From the Acrolink website (Japan)

"There is a strong demand in the market for high purity copper with a purity level of 6N or more, which is used to produce the wire material of highly integrated semiconductors. It had been developed and put in practical use in 1997. As a matter of fact, the only companies in the world today producing high purity raw copper in large quantities are none other than Nikko Materials Co. Ltd. and Mitsubishi Materials Co. Ltd. The business circles of integrated semiconductors demand a guarantee of high quality for raw materials, and in fact no enterprise is satisfied with the copper that has less purity than 6N copper for the purposes of mass production of their products. ACROLINK, the only cable-maker in the world that uses 6N copper and copper of higher purity receives a guarantee of analyzed values through a tie-up with the aforementioned two companies.

There is a strong demand in the market for high purity copper with a purity level of 6N or more, which is used to produce the wire material of highly integrated semiconductors. It had been developed and put in practical use in 1997. As a matter of fact, the only companies in the world today producing high purity raw copper in large quantities are none other than Nikko Materials Co. Ltd. and Mitsubishi Materials Co. Ltd. The business circles of integrated semiconductors demand a guarantee of high quality for raw materials, and in fact no enterprise is satisfied with the copper that has less purity than 6N copper for the purposes of mass production of their products. ACROLINK, the only cable-maker in the world that uses 6N copper and copper of higher purity receives a guarantee of analyzed values through a tie-up with the aforementioned two companies.

Currently in the field of audio cables, representation of the purity degree of raw materials has been offered in the form of 6N, 7N, 8N, etc. However, from the viewpoint of scientific reality, the percentage of raw materials should be calculated by the differential value method. Strictly speaking, the purity of copper should be shown in the form of numerical numbers, after the total amount of the quantitative measurements of the other metallic elements( impure materials )other than pure gold on the periodic table, are subtracted from 100. Under the current situation where there is no agreement to show quality standards, the values of the amounts of the raw material( indication of purity) will vary according to each case where some impurities can be counted and others can not. In other words, it is even possible to remove intentionally a certain impurity, i.e. a certain metallic element with a higher value, from the measurement. For instance, general purpose Japanese copper metal has a purity degree of 4N5 with a purity of 99.995% but there are several impurities such as Ag that have very high degrees of impurity. If it is excluded from the targets for the differential value method, it immediately enables you to publicize the data that the copper has a high degree of purity, i.e. a higher degree than 5N because Ag has the purity degree of 10ppm or so.

Cables produced by ACROLINK, use self-stipulated 6N copper constructed using the same process as is used with wires for semiconductor devices, which requires a guarantee of high quality. More precisely, the purity of the copper needs to be over 99.9999% and the total of any impurity metals must be less than 1 ppm.

Impurity metals in over 6N purity copper are measured mostly with highly precise measuring instruments called GD-Ms (GD-Mass), and this type of analysis work requires advanced know-how. Leading other brands, ACROLINK has disclosed to the public the analyzed values of representative elements that may affect sound qualities. These were selected out of the whole body of elements consisting of fifty or sixty items."

Jitter
Geoff stuttered:
most high end wire is 99.9999 pure. Do the math. That’s more than 100 times purer than 99.95% pure copper. Hel-loo

to which jitter replied,

"Let say the high end wire was 100% pure. The monoprice wire at 99.95% pure is 5 one hundredths of a percent purer. In multiplication that amounts to .05 of 1%(.01) purer."

Gee whiz, I must have had more math than you, jitter. Your numbers don’t make any sense. I have to assume you're pulling my leg.

Jetter
Ok Geoff, I was being lazy and didn’t bother to look up the specs, here you go, costing $15:

Choice™ Series 12AWG Oxygen-Free Pure Bare Copper Speaker Wire, 50ft. Get the most out of your home audio system with high quality, oxygen-free, pure bare copper speaker wire from Monoprice! This speaker wire features two conductors made of high purity (greater than 99.95% pure), oxygen-free bare copper. Pure Bare Copper is a superior conductor to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) conductors used in most other inexpensive speaker wire. ..

Copper clad aluminum conductors in most other inexpensive speaker wire? What? Whoa! Are they smoking crack? Talk about a marketing genius!

Most high end copper wire is 99.9999% pure. The Japanese stuff is even purer. Do the math. That’s more than 100 times purer than 99.95% pure copper. Hel-loo!

Geoffkait: Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren’t copper. Hel-loo!

to which jitter replied,

"Yes I know, silver or gold, emblazoned with magnets and graphene. With the correct directionality marked, of course, and cryoed."

Ouch! Touché!

99% pure copper? Gosh, you really are naive. Besides, the uber expensivo cables usually aren't copper. Hel-loo!

dlcockrum
Contrary to popular opinion (apparently), not many audio buyers mindlessly throw money at cables that don’t provide audible benefits in their system, according to their personal tastes and preferences.

eggs ackley! Besides, most cables have 30 day guarantee or whatever. And I doubt any well heeled audiophiles with half a brain pays retail these days. Lol not to mention high end cble can be had for great bargains right here on Audiogon. One man’s treasure is another man’s trash. Lol and anyone can borrow high end cables or power cords from Cable Company for extended auditions. So, one has to ask, uh, where’s the beef?

I suspect all this hand-wringing over cables that has been going on like forever will prove to be nothing more than a symptom of Mid Fi angst and jealousy. 😩

Another innovation Tannoy utilizes - at least for their flagship model - is cryo'ing the internal wiring and the entire crossover assembly. 

I can hardly wait’ll you knuckledraggers get a load of the $24K interconnects and $40K speaker cables. Try not to have an brain aneurism.

 
mitch2

Geoffkait: You need to look deeper, grasshopper. Look inside.

Why look inside....does the hook-up wire inside of the $99K amp need to be changed too?

Definitely. If it were up to me I'd use cryo'd pure silver wire or silver over pure copper wire for the internal wiring. With special attention to the directionality of the internal wire. Ditto all capacitors, transformers, and of course fuses. I'm betting the $99K amps don't even have their fuses in the right direction.

mapman

Mystery not unraveled. Life and expensive wire go on.

There is no mystery. You need to look deeper, grasshopper. Look inside.

mapman
I’d return my 90k amp if I found out they cheaped out on the cord.

If if you can do a 90k amplifier right and then get the cord wrong and the cord matters then guess what you screwed up and credibility gone.

If you were buying the 90k amp which cord would you insist they put on it? Just curious.

Speaking of Michael Fremer, wasn’t he the one who was challenged by the guy from the JREF Education Foundation, I forget that person’s name? Anyway, the challenge was if M. Fremer could correctly identify which cable was which in 10 consecutive blind trials. The two cables in question were el cheaply Monster Cable and the el expensivo PEAR cables that were around $20K. Did I mention the challenge was for $1 Million if M. Fremer succeeded in the blind test? Anyhow, something happened during the negotiations and test never took place. Now, I don’t know if M. Fremer was unhappy with the constraints of the tests, whether JREF got paranoid, thinking maybe this audiophile dude really can hear difference in cables and might very possibly take the Million Dollar prize or what all.

drsteve wrote,

"The original poster left out some very important information that makes it impossible for anyone to asses the validity of his tests:

which generic wire did he use?"

None. He didn't use any $5K speaker cable either. He was trolling. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Randy-11
placebo man is a good moniker for him

Oh, geez! It's the Jeff Daniels and Jim Carrey show.

😛

mapman
Or there is no or little difference to hear. Conveniently forgot that one didn’t you placebo man?

One assumes the one about your hearing ability must have set you off, mopman. Better watch that hair trigger.

😉

There are plenty of reasons why folks don't hear the differences in cables. The cables are not connected in the right direction, cables are not broken in, the system is not sufficiently resolving, the listener's hearing acuity is not what he believe it to be, there are mistakes in the system (out of phase, etc.), test material in reverse polarity, system in reverse polarity, the reverse expectation bias in action. Things of that nature. 

Don’t worry, we know where you’re coming from. 🤡

mapman
"I still have many older monster wires around and I even use them when needed. Guess what? They sound perfectly fine these days. Of course the systems I use them in these days are miles ahead of what I had back when I originally bought them. Goes to show that whatever the upside to certain more esoteric wires may or may not be, the downside is limited when everything else is performing well already.

Notice I did not say they sound the same or as good as others I use. I know some to sound different in spot a/b tests I have done from time to time. All I am saying is the the wires in of themselves do no harm. So I can choose to tweak wires or most anything else as needed and get quality results. Exact flavors of sound that results may vary.

Thing is it is easy and can be relatively inexpensive to tweak with wires. Its the same mindset that drives fuse tweakers I think (I am not one of those).

If a tweak is needed or desired and it does not cost much and I can change it easily and see what happens I will. HEck I even tried out a $100 fuse that someone here offered up to try for free. It was an easy thing to change and try so I did.

The interesting thing is some of our gear and systems cost a lot of money which means the price of "relatively inexpensive" goes up as well. Makes for a nice environment to sell things that are probably overpriced but still relatively affordable on the grand scale of things. Someone with a 6 digit system to start is not likely to balk at a 4 digit wire. More likely to balk at a less expensive wire not being up to par with the rest.

Its like if decorating a large expensive room in a mansion, One is probably not going to cheap up on the paint or other basic materials used that may or may not make much if any real difference in appearance in the end.

Luxury items are just that. Things that look nice and make us feel good about owning but may or may not actually be more functional in the end.

Just realize that expensive wires are luxury items and then we can all not loose any sleep about it."

I have yet to see anyone construct a better or more articulate argument for abandoning high end and returning to Mid Fi.

Maplegrovemusic
This reminds me of the need to enable the block function of posters . Kaitts posts are growing old . Same old same old . We know how you stand on everything related to audio Geoff . No need to remind us daily . Now how do i actually enable that block function ?

Noone is under any obligation to read my posts or anyone's posts. If you don't want to read my posts don't read them. Fair enough?

"You are too emotionally involved in defending expensive cable. Either you are a cable rep, or you need some therapeutic assistance."

I'm not defending expensive cables. Try taking a reading comprehension course sometime. You appear to be in over your head.

I had dinner with the Monster Cable dude, him and John Curl and Bob Crump way back when. Please note this thread is about $5K cables not $25 cables. Hel-loo! I actually made the mistake of buying Monster Cable when it first came out. The thick twisted multi-stranded copper wire in the clear see-thru jacket. The cable wars have been off and running ever since Monster and Polk Audio and Fulton cables first came out. When was that? Gotta be at least 30 years ago, maybe 35. And it appears the cable wars are still going on.

Did Taters get reincarnated as Randy?

Ouch! Very ouch!

Huh? You mean you’re not a pinboy? Whoops, my bad.

Slow day at the bowling alley, Moops?

Huh? You don’t even know what anecdotal evidence is, Moops, do you?

mapman

The nice thing about anecdotes are anyone can write one and say whatever they want.

Right. Kinda like a lot of your posts, if I may be so bold.

mapman
how about teleportation tweaks? That’s not even anecdotal unless one considers the seller saying it works enough to qualify.

Glad you brought that up, Moops. In fact there’s a bunch of "anecdotal" reports on the Teleportation Tweak, you know, given that it's been around a while. Give me a second and I’ll link you up.

Here you go, Moops

http://machinadynamica.com/machina39.htm

shadorne
Geoffkait,

I think frame11 was quoting the audio critic and the statement is entirely correct from an engineering design perspective. Go to any reputable University and study electrical engineering or physics and the professors and text books will only use R, L and C for calculations at audio frequencies. These are the only factors that need to be considered in these analog circuits at these frequencies because they encompass and describe the entire behaviour as far as reputable science is concerned.

I do hate to be argy bargy about this but if the statement regarding RLC was actually true then how come cables that measure the same sound different? That’s right up there with the bullet headed dude from Audio Review’s opinion that all amps that measured about the same sounded the same. Any reputable University? Huh? That’s like the most obvious Appeal to Authority I’ve seen all week. You know, as in phoney argument.

Now anecdotally what people claim to hear can be an entirely different matter; unlike scientific laws and procedures in science that require repeatability of measurements by anyone and everyone to be accepted, there is no need to demonstrate or prove any of the wild claims about special wires...so audiophile dealers and audiophiles can and do make wild unsubstantiated claims all the time. These claims are quite similar to many unproven wild or crazy claims about incredible benefits of certain health foods or certain diets or any multitude of anecdotal claims that just might be influenced one encouraged by the potential profit from selling the "magical" products.

Typical anti cable rant, signifying nada. In fact observations of the sound are perfectly good evidence in the scientific sense. Didn’t you know that?

Frame11 wrote,

"The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies."

😄 Thanks for the funniest statement of the day. Of course, there are 24 hours in a day. We shall see how it holds up.

unreceivedogma wrote,

"I’ve got news for all of you cable addicts.

The founder of Monster Cable said he realized that audio nuts would pay a fortune for "high end audio cable" so he founded a company based on that premise, creating products to meet this demand. He says that in reality the expensive cable makes little to no difference in the overall sound. You might as well use lamp chord."

Uh, hate to burst your bubble but Monster Cable, at least initially, was inexpensive cable, not expensive cable. Hel-loo! The attraction was that Monster Cable was THICK and you could see the thick copper through the clear jacket, which are both actually excellent ideas, you know, given the propensities of audiophiles.

Dynaquest4 wrote,

"In an earlier post someone was touting (promoting? selling?) Nordost Odin cables (see link at bottom). A quick and dirty calculation determined that to equip a stereo system (preamp/amp/player/speakers) with this line of cables, it would cost $176,000. Let’s say that these cables provided a significant 5% "improvement" in audio quality. My math says that the rest of your system should cost about $3,500,000.00 for this purchase to make sense."

Thanks for the heads up. I was this close to pulling the trigger on a full loom of Nordost Odin cables.

Hello all, I’m recusing myself from this discussion. I actually use no cables, interconnects or power cords, a solution that neatly avoids the myriad pitfalls associated with ANY cables and power cords. So, I’m leaving this particular thread to those with dogs in this fight. My battery based solution also neatly avoids the myriad issues related to house AC power, AC ground, fuses, big ol capacitors and toxic transformers, etc. Best of luck to all.

 
islandsound
1 posts
IMO you are correct it's a ripoff. Really the only way I could see it making a difference is if you had a ridiculous sound system to go with the expensive cables, but really even then I highly doubt you'd hear a difference. The human ear just isn't capable and everyones ears are different. Now I would argue that test equipment might be able to decent the sonic differences. This topic has been discussed to length so many times but I always like to see people talk about it.

I bet Mr. Spock could hear the difference.

There are many perfectly good reasons why some people can't hear differences between cables. Shall we explore them? 

Have a nice new year.

Whoa! What? Nobody’s mentioned $25K cables. Surely they’ve GOT to be better than generic 14 ga cables, no?

grannyring
Can we all agree wire cannot obtain the sonic pot of gold?

In this hobby it’s sometimes best not to try and draw any conclusions about anything, no matter how convinced we might be that it's true. Nothing is true. Everything is true.