Sorry, Ecir. I did not realize you were building an outboard arm pod to match the height of your plinth. My guess is you need pretty exact data for that OR a height-adjustable arm pod.
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Showing 50 responses by lewm
On the subject of the performance of MM vs MC cartridges, I wonder if anyone, particularly Dgriffiths and Fleib, has seen this series of posts by John Ellison on Vinyl Asylum, wherein he "proves" his pre-existing bias that MM cartridges cannot compete with MC types, for the primary reason that MMs cannot get the extreme high frequencies right. It would be interesting to hear comments on this thread: HERE To begin with, he totally discounts the things that MMs can clearly do better than MCs, as a class, e.g., tracking, and that MMs require much less phono gain,leading to lower distortion due to electronics downstream. |
Dear Raul, By specifically citing Fleib and Dgriffiths, I certainly did not intend to exclude anyone. I realize now that I left out you and a few others who also seem interested in the theory behind these devices. My apologies. I quite agree with your sentiments, as well. It was a wonder to me that JE's thesis met with so little resistance from the others who regularly post on VA, many of whom, like Mark Kelly, are very smart and very knowledgeable. I thought it would make in interesting topic for discussion and dissection here. |
Don, I am surprised no one else brought it up, but the Acutex 320 series also have titanium cantilevers, IIRC. Nandric mentioned AKG. We all know that the unavailable P100LE is nectar of the gods, but what of the P8ES and its derivatives (vdH, etc)? These were touted at the outset of this thread, but opinions since then seem luke warm, at best. That is, if you have one with two good channels. Any thoughts on how the P8ES stacks up after all this time? |
As for me, I have to admit candidly that I was never willing to spend more than $2500 or thereabouts for ANY cartridge. Thus I have never personally owned most of the top echelon contenders, based on price. I have owned a Koetsu Urushi for many years but only because I was able to purchase mine direct from a dealer in Tokyo, thanks to my bilingual son. I bought a Colibri from Mike Lavigne at a price within my stated range. I also bought an Ortofon MC7500, from none other than Raul. These are the three most expensive cartridges I've ever owned. Each was and is excellent in its own way; none is perfectly satisfying to me on all levels. I have been having fun with these MM and MI cartridges, but I think that I will not know exactly how to rate the best ones of them, until I can run a current state of the art MC in my system, for comparison. I have been targeting a ZYX UNIverse (0.24mV, copper), but even that is now eclipsed in the ZYX line by one or two other models. Still, I refuse to say that ALL those highest-priced MCs are falsely idolized, because I have not really tested the idea in my own system. It is clear, however, that the very best of the MM and MIs that I have listened to extensively, like the Grace Ruby and the Stanton 981LZS, both of which I currently have to rank ahead of the Acutex LPM320 (but not yet the M320) are in many ways preferable to the Urushi, MC7500, and Colibri. And of course I have a shelf full of other MM and MI types that I have not auditioned. (I tend to settle down and listen to music, once I'm happy with any cartridge; I find it difficult to change cartridges just to find out what the next one sounds like.) Raul, Oddly enough the MC7500 sounded best of all in the crazy RS-A1 tonearm, better than it does in the Reed 2A, whereas I do very much like the Reed 2A with other cartridges. I need to remount it in the RS-A1. As I think I once mentioned, if you factor in all the variations on the Colibri, there are really dozens of Colibri's, and each could sound different, depending upon its coil material, body structure, output voltage, etc. My particular Colibri was a high output one, and I think that's why it did not light my fire. My cheapskate nature caused me to live with HOMC cartridges, several types, for more than a decade, because they could be had for reasonable prices and got rave reviews often (e.g., the Benz Glider). None of them gave me an iota of satisfaction, and I tended to blame it on my phono stage, rather than on the cartridges. I now know different. For even less money, I could have been listening to a good MM and been much happier. |
It's dangerous to suppose that there is any cartridge that Raul has not either owned or heard. Usually, in fact, he owns it and has heard it. Meantime, I have some anxiety regarding the NOS 550 ML stylus assembly. Mine is blue, like Dave's. I infer that it will look the same upon close inspection. Fleib, whose judgement I respect, seems quite certain that what is shown in Dave's photos (to be seen over on AA) is neither beryllium nor ML. (Or perhaps Fleib inspected some other sample of the same item.) What next? |
Based on the discussion, it appears CA used the new stronger magnets in the new Maestro in order to increase output, rather than to create a low inductance, low output design a la the Stanton 980LZS, that would have been much more interesting and compelling to the cognoscenti (me, anyway). Pity. Can anyone respond to my post regarding the Precept PC220XE? (For all I know at this juncture, my eBay purchased one may have yet another aftermarket ersatz stylus and cantilever mounted on it, but it looks authentic.) |
Dentdog, FYI, Rhea is not balanced. Io is balanced. That's one of the major reasons for the far higher cost of the latter. This is not to say that the Rhea is not a fine sounding phono stage. I have noticed, however, that a lot of companies blow smoke as regards balanced operation,particularly where phono stages are concerned. You have to do a lot of careful reading to figure out whether some of them are truly balance, or not. When you boil it down, not too many can actually make the claim. |
Dear Don, With all respect as our professor, your statement "You can not truly wire a phono cartridge to the phono stage in a truly balanced mode" is not correct. Cartridges are inherently balanced devices, except for some rare exceptions like some of the old Decca designs. The cartridge does not "know" whether you are taking its output from one side of it or the other; there are equal and opposite polarity signals on either end. Conventional SE input phono stages selectively ground one side and take the signal output from the other. True balanced phono stages DO exist. (I own one, the Atma-sphere MP1. MP3 is another. I used to own also an Ayre p5Xe, also truly balanced. I assumed that BAT phono stages were also truly balanced from input to output, but now I am not certain. It may be that only the output is balanced. That would explain Victor's statement; if the VK10 does not have a true balanced RIAA stage, then indeed he was correct in what he told you.) Here are some words from Wikipedia: "Most professional audio products (recording, public address, etc.) provide differential balanced inputs and outputs, typically via XLR or TRS phone connectors. However, in most cases, a differential balanced input signal is internally converted to a single-ended signal via transformer or electronic amplifier. After internal processing, the single-ended signal is converted back to a differential balanced signal and fed to an output. A small number of professional audio products have been designed as an entirely differential balanced signal path from input to output; the audio signal never unbalances. This design is achieved by providing identical (mirrored) internal signal paths for both pin 2 and pin 3 signals (AKA "hot" and "cold" audio signals). In critical applications, a 100% differential balanced circuit design can offer better signal integrity by avoiding the extra amplifier stages or transformers required for front-end unbalancing and back-end rebalancing. |
"Some phono guru told me that phono cartridge is basically a " balance " device. It is not. It is neither balanced nor single-ended. It is correctly called "floating" source that can be used either way. Much like a battery. The connection to the circuit defines wether it is now a balanced circuit or whatever." (Quote from Victor.) To an engineer, this is a valid point, I suppose. To anyone else, this is semantics. If you hook a cartridge up in balanced mode to a true balanced RIAA equalizer, you will have all the benefits of the noise rejection available via balanced mode. It's "floating" because there is no center ground between the two phases. As soon as you attach it to a balanced phono stage, which WILL have an audio ground, then it becomes balanced to the satisfaction of an engineer, I would think. (The ground in the phono circuit becomes the reference for the cartridge.) The fact that your VK10 has XLR inputs for the cartridge does not necessarily mean it has a fully balanced RIAA. Probably it does not. I am more and more convinced of that as I read what Victor says about it. This is no slur on the VK10. There are many many great sounding single-ended phono stages. Moreover, seems the VK10 does have balanced output. |
Storyboy, That's a good story. 99.99% of cartridges have no such strap. As I noted above, some vintage cartridges, like the Decca's, did have such. Think of it this way: what happens if you make a mistake wiring your cartridge? Answer: the channels can be out of phase. Why? Because the so-labeled "ground" peg on the cartridge is just a choice made by the maker; you can get signal out of that peg. |
Dear Don, I just read your long post addressed to Raul, wherein you talk again about "quasi-balanced". In fact, one of the best ways to avoid or cancel hum is by using balanced connection, from the cartridge to the phono stage (as you stipulate), IF the phono stage is truly balanced from RIAA input to output. Can you find out more about your VK10? I am guessing it is not balanced at its input, only at its output, which is entirely possible. But it's just a guess. |
I sure am not going to challenge the wisdom of Mr. Hansen. If he says to do it that way, do it that way. However, the DIN plug is at the upstream end of the cable. For sure, at the DIN plug side, all grounds have to go to the one pin on the DIN connector that is available for grounds. There are 5 pins in a DIN plug. Two each are available for, respectively, the positive and negative halves of the signal from the cartridge, for each of the two channels. I guess you are saying he does not ground the shield(s) at the XLR end, but instead he sends a separate wire from that ground pin on the DIN to the body of the phono stge. Probably he's right; in fact that may be what I do myself. |
Dear Henry, I will keep you informed privately. Not too many here would be interested. I won the thing (Victor QL10) on eBay. The seller says it spins too fast and cannot be made to spin at 33 using the adjuster. After exchanging messages with him, I ascertained that he was feeding it 120V/60Hz, instead of 100V/60Hz. I am first of all keeping my fingers crossed that when I plug it in to the correct voltage using a step-down transformer, it will actually be OK. (Of course, it's equally likely that he fried something irreparably.) I will also for sure change out all the electrolytic capacitors, regardless. Seems he bought it at an estate sale, has no idea about audio or record players. However, he was very compliant and cooperative when I gave him specific instructions how to pack it for shipment. It will come to me in 3 separate boxes. It's on the way now. What I always liked about the TT101 is the coreless motor. My experience with the L07D convinces me there is something special about turntables that use coreless motors. Good thing is that the entire service manual is available on Vinyl Engine, all 56 pages. I printed it out and will have it available for Bill, should it come to that. Bill probably would not touch it without the manual. I increased my bid, once I found out that I could get the manual in English. (I had visions of trying to convince my son to translate it from Japanese, not an easy task.) |
Dear Fleib, I now recall that Kelly's issue with tubes was this very one of the problem of matching them in a balanced circuit. Mark went on to design and implement a balanced circuit wherein the imbalance is automatically compensated for. His own home-brew phono stage is thus balanced and uses tubes for gain. So, you cannot use that to support your argument. Of course, if the parts on one half of the circuit are grossly defective or poorly matched, which is kind of what I read into your bit about "sweaty hands", then a balanced circuit will not work optimally well. Nor will an SE circuit. Thus I label your argument not relevant. Also, if you really think that tubes are obsolete in audio, we don't have much to talk about, because we are too far apart in our mindsets. Having said that, I should also admit that in my own balanced phono stage, I implemented an MAT02 bipolar transistor at the input. This device has two sections that are matched within a gnat's toukus. Everything else downstream from the MAT02, right up to the speakers, is tubes in full balanced mode. No phase-splitting is ever done. You would like the sound, I think. It would be great if any of us could ever get to hear the others' systems. No weapons allowed. |
Thanks, Audpulse. Fleib, I think, already told us as much. I was just wondering whether LP Gear may have had a mixed batch, some of which were genuine 550ML and some like the ones you and I and others were talking about. Mine is definitely a darker blue color compared to the photo posted here earlier. |
Nandric, they did originally come with their own subwoofers. But those would now be 30 years old, and they sucked in the first place, according to those who have heard them. Moreover, there is a bass amplifier built onto the chassis of the direct-drive tube amps; it does not elicit admiration for quality of its construction, either. I don't have the original subs and won't use the built-in woofer amplifiers. I don't know what you mean by "Ikea" subs. I built those things out of high-density fiberboard (HDF) that is one-inch thick, and then they were covered with formica. (This is 1970s technology, I admit, but not an IKEA kit, either.) I need some modern "stuffing" for my TLs, however. If I fall in love with the speakers, I will get better subwoofers. |
No Nikola, My FATHER's father came to the US from Poland. Oddly, he too was a tailor. I really know nothing much about that side of my family. My father was the strong, silent type. My maternal grandfather was in fact Rumanian. So, in total we have two Polish grandparents on my father's side, and one Russian (born in Salonika and never actually living in Russia) plus one Rumanian on my mother's side. Being FROM czarist Russia was apparently far preferable to living IN czarist Russia. I remember my great-grandfather quite well, because when I was a young child he lived in an apartment above that of my maternal grandparents. He and my grandfather listened to Toscanini and the NBC symphony orchestra and to the Metropolitan Opera radio broadcasts every week. He always wore a 3-piece suit and a tie and smoked a cigaret in a holder. Somehow I think memories of my family are off-topic. Sorry. |
I've got a hand-held magnifier that should do the trick, maybe even without opening the clear plastic box. Anyway, there is low probability that I lucked out here. Just wishful thinking. My understanding is that LP Gear is taking these items back under "return authorization". I intend to go that route. |
Fleib, I hate the acronym LOL, but I am laughing out loud, or was. To my right as I sit here at my computer is a huge photo of my mother's family as they were in about 1935. My great grandparents are seated in the middle among their 10 children, the spouses of those 10 children, and the then extant children of those matings. My great grandfather was a tailor who fled czarist Russia only to end up in Alexandria, Egypt, where he must have thrived, because from there he was eventually able to send each of his 10 children to the US, one of whom went to medical school in Heidelburg, Germany, along the way. And my grandmother herself was born in Salonika, also along the way from Russia to Egypt. Otherwise, I would be collecting tonearms in northern Europe. Either that or I never would have existed. |
Halcro, I am very impressed with the quality of the construction of both the TT101 and the 7045. They are both beautiful pieces of industrial engineering. My fingers are crossed, too. It would probably be most prudent to check the DC voltages mentioned above, before proceeding to push the start button. Or even to replace the electrolytic caps before starting it up. |
Thanks, Gary. After posting my questions yesterday, I did recall that you, along with Halcro, are a long term owner of a TT101. Today I should get the platter, and then we'll see. I am debating with myself whether it is wise even to start it up, knowing that the other guy already had a problem with speed control and now knowing that it cannot be a matter simply of supplying 100VAC vs 120VAC. If it's a matter of leaky caps, applying power could damage solid state devices in the circuit secondarily. If such damage has not yet occurred, it might be best to re-cap before starting. I think first thing to do is to check whether the PS is putting out the requisite DC voltages. Question: Is there a switch somewhere to select the AC voltage? I am rather surprised that the label indicates one can supply 100, 120, or 220 ad lib. (Mine is still in its QL10 plinth, so some details are hidden from view.) |
Dear Aigenga, You wrote, "when you first power-up the TT-101 let it warm up for 5 or 10 minutes before hitting speed selection. It would also be good to spin the platter in both directions to loosen up the bearing and wake up the speed sensor." What is the basis for those ideas? Do you own one, and is this your personal experience, or did you read it somewhere? Thanks for the input, by the way. But "warm up", "loosen up", and "wake up" do not seem normal for a well functioning essentially solid state circuit. If it behaves that way, I will suspect leaky capacitors. If it ran on tubes, I might accept the ideas as normal more readily. (I spun the spindle by hand; the bearing feels "like butter", and there is no sense of any friction or noise.) I did notice that the AC input is labeled as OK for 100V, 120V, and even 220V. So much for my idea that the problem would be simply cured by supplying it with 100V. |
Update on TT101. The seller was correct; it's broken. I've got a bunch of capacitors lying around here from repair of other DD turntables, so I will begin to replace those and order more as well. I also notice that of all the high-end direct-drives I have examined, this one has the lightest platter. No wonder the servo is bi-directional; the platter speed is a major function of the motor control of the platter, rather than of the inertial mass of the platter itself. Thus, if the motor over-accelerates the platter, it has also to bring the speed back down, because platter inertia is minimal. (As I see it, for any turntable, the motor's ability to control the platter and the inertial mass of the platter are interacting determinants of speed accuracy. We already know from Halcro that the TT101 is dead-on accurate under all conditions, when it's not broken like mine.) Aigenga and Halcro, Have you guys experimented with higher mass platter mats? |
Thanks to Henry and Gary. The TT101 works exactly as "advertised" by the eBay seller. It spins very fast, faster than 45, even. The speed is no different when one selects either 33 or 45. There is no read-out on the digital tachometer, except for the decimal point, which does light up. There is no response to the pitch controls. The "brake" does no braking, when you hit the "Stop" button (possibly because of the high speed). My plan for the coming weekend is to take it apart and order capacitors. About the AC voltage: Even the service manual says to supply it with 100VAC. Yet, for sure, my unit is labeled as suitable for anything: 100, 120, and 220. On top of that, there is no external switch for selecting the input AC voltage among those three choices. All testing I have done is with 100VAC from a step-down transformer. Henry, The CU180 probably weighs as much as the whole platter sans mat. (Doesn't the CU180 weigh about 4 lbs?) I plan to try the SS300 mat, when and if the problems are cured; it's lighter than the CU180. And that stock mat is made of pigskin? Very interesting. |
Raul, Re your questions to JCarr, we are all familiar with the fact that if one is standing very close to the turntable, one can typically hear faint music emanating directly from the cartridge. What is the source of that sound, if it is not in fact the cantilever vibrating in tune to the music? (This is not a rhetorical question; I am truly wondering about it, altho I did always think it must be from the cantilever.) But on the other hand, implicit in Jonathan's post is the notion that capacity to propagate sound is a correlate of goodness. I can see why that might be; the more accurately the vibrations induced at the stylus tip are preserved at the transducing interface, the better. But it also raises the question of how that energy is dissipated so as to avoid interference phenomena, a kind of IM distortion happening where the coils and magnets are wiggling. |
Raul, The Boston Audio Mat2 has edged out the SS300 on both my SP10 Mk3 and on my Lenco. But the SS300 still ranks as "very good"; I've been using it on the Denon DP80. Interesting you remark that the DP80 and TT101 are similar. They certainly do LOOK similar, and before I had done any research, I even guessed that Denon made the Victor tt's for Victor. But that could not be farther from the truth. The servo circuit design of the two turntables is quite different, and while the Denon uses a 3-phase AC multi-pole motor, the TT101 uses a DC coreless motor. Also, the Victor platter is, at a guess, even lighter than that of the Denon. I will be very interested to compare the sound of the two, if the TT101 can be fixed. It's quite fascinating to me that each of the Japanese companies did its own thinking about how best to design and build a top end DD turntable. Apart from the general use of a quartz-locked servo-controlled drive, they are all different. Ecir, Where do you see the switch? Inside the chassis or outside? I don't find any switch easily accessible from outside the chassis. As you suggest, I expected to find one. I downloaded the service manual from Vinyl Engine. If that was also your source, what page shows the switch? Maybe it's hidden from my view by the QL10 plinth. I will extricate the TT101 from the plinth tonight. |
Dear Mr Cockrum, We know Nandric longer than we know you. Nandric is irritable, but he is also a very interesting guy. And, he is Serbian. Nandric and we know that Communism is dead. Get over it, and get a sense of humor. Personally, I am reluctant to buy and/or sell outside the US and Canada (always include Canada), because there is too much uncertainty about shipping and handling. And I feel (rightly or wrongly) that there is no recourse to deal with the one or two rare persons who are dishonest. Actually, I have no problem with the UK or the Euro continent for low dollar transactions where the item will fit in a small box. Nandric, the US balance of payments is not affected by these private sales, and, FYI, the US balance of payments has ALWAYS been in negative balance (US imports exceed exports), at least since the 1960s. Despite endless hand-wringing on this subject, the sky has not yet fallen, and the US economy survives, albeit in a wounded state since 2008. |
Dear Raul, Debating about whether to keep the MMC1, because I have so many others I like as well. Therefore, I have not put mine into service, so that if and when I sell it I can still honestly say it is NOS. My reservations also have something to do with the fact that I would need to use their P-mount adapter. It looks to be a flimsy plastic thing that could do no good for the sound. If I get serious about the cartridge, I am going to talk to a machinist about making an alu piece that grips the cartridge body much more firmly with respect to the headshell. |
Ecir, My posts are not being blocked from this thread, or so it seems. This one will serve as a test. I will be happy to measure my TT101 for you, when I get it back from servicing. Meantime, you might try to download either the owners manual or the service manual, from Vinyl Engine. There you may or may not find the desired dimension. But couldn't you also just use longer "feet", once you graduate to the TT101? That is, let the lower part of the TT101 hang down below your plinth and just add length to the footers to provide the necessary clearance. |
Both the Talisman Alchemist and the Virtuoso Dti were often reviewed and highly regarded back in their day. The problem is that I don't trust those who regarded them highly. As always, I have an open mind, but I also have to ask why bother, since we have identified so many other wonderful cartridges already, and I regard it as unlikely that either of these two is transcendent. Agree about my "HO" Colibri. It's HO only in comparison to very LOMCs. |
I agree in principle that a top quality pair of two-way monitors plus a pair of subwoofers of similar high quality can compete with any other way of obtaining one's own absolute sound. Each way of getting there has it's own set of problems. With the monitor plus sub approach, the problem is the quality and type of the crossover network and the integration between monitor and sub. I am wrestling with that right now as regards how to get the most out of the Beveridge 2SWs. The crossover electronics built into the 2SW chassis are subpar by modern standards. |
Raul, I spent a lot of time listening to a Raidho speaker, too, at the recent Capital Audio Fest here in the DC area. I think the ones I heard are called "D1", not C1.1, yet these too were stand-mounted two-way monitors. The base price was $22,000; $25,000 if you want real wood framing on your cabinet (which is about the size of a shoebox). Like many such 2-way monitors, they had the capacity to "disappear" such that they created a wide, open, spacious soundstage. I too thought they were remarkably good, but there is not much mystery why: they use a very fine ribbon tweeter of some kind. I wonder what is the difference between the C1.1 and the D1. Anyway, if you live in an apartment and have a lot of money, the D1 (and probably the C1.1) is indeed excellent. Just for the sake of a fun argument, I note that now you have enlisted Martin Collums in support of the Alchemist's excellence. Another charter member of the evil empire, AHEE. Couldn't it be that the endorsements of Collums, HP, Holt, Cordesman, and King were some part of a plot to deceive innocent audiophiles who cannot think for themselves? (I don't think this; I am just playing Devil's advocate vis your AH�EE hypothesis.) |
Chopin is very insecure, else he would not be compelled to comment. Next thing you know he will be haunting eBay in search of a Shure V15 to replace his own mediocre Shure. Anyway, what Chuck Berry once sang still holds true: "Roll over Beethoven, and tell Tchaikovsky (and Chopin) the news... MM rules." |