Anthony, I may have missed it, are you building a resistor attentuator? With balanced connections? |
Was your Tap-X was S&B transformer or Slagle autoformer? |
Why? A lot of bang for the buck. Why not? Good actives still sound better to my ears, an others, in more systems. But you can undoubtedy have SOTA with a passive approach, but you might prefer the flavoring provided by actives, especially with tubes. |
Herman, I think there are plenty of people that know perfectly well how to match a passive between their source, cabling and amp, and even when getting all that right still prefer an active preamp. Obviously in the wrong system a passive preamp will stink, but we are not talking about something so gross as that. One has to wonder what it was about Albert's system that he preferred the DarTzeel to his Placette? On some level it seems to make sense, how could all that sophisticated electronics (and complexity)used to amplify the signal only to have to attentuate it yet again possibly be as pure as leaving the signal alone? Well, it seems that for some people an active will do just that, and not just with an $18,000 preamp. I still agree that with a good source voltage with low output impedance feeding a passive into a sensitive amp with high imput impedance it is pretty hard to beat a passive for SOTA sounds at a very affordable price. It is for many a very good option, but it doesn't mean others don't prefer actives to passives even under the best of circumstances. (I've had Placette, K&K, and Bent with Autoformers - all sounding wonderful, but I prefer my Joule and Atma-sphere preamps in my system). One must also consider that many may love sources and amps (and possible cables) that just won't well with a passive at all. |
Anthony, I know what you mean about the RM10MKII, why I had to come back to it. It maybe be in some ways, a greater piece of design than my RM9SEs (5x$$$). Becuase I do think Roger is a genius at this stuff, and he insists that I am crazy to use anything but a passive preamp, I may go there yet again. Herman, thanks for the link. |
Has anyone tried Jeffrey Jackson's designs? I like the retro look. I imagine it has to sound awfully close to the BENT-TAP-x with autoformer. Sonic Euophoria is an autoformer as well, it I remember. |
Herman, any opinion on resistor attentuation versus transformer/autoformer passives? Anyone else? The consensus here seems to be TVC/AVC all the way, but that is not quite what I here when I talk to engineers.... |
Anthony, you know what Roger Modjeski thinks, and he seems to know a thing or two about this stuff. One of the reasons I question the TVC/AVC avalanche of opinion. When are you going to sell me your Lightspeeds:)? |
I would think a passive is very unlikely to ever need any support, no capacitors, no resistors, you should be grey before anything goes wrong. |
Cerrot, attenuators must all be resistor based, right? Any experience with them versus TVC/AVCs? |
Phd, I'm sure the McCormack gear is wonderful, but Nelson Pass and Charles Hansen have some pretty good sounding SS gear. |
Herman, isn't the other side of your argument that passives simply don't work right in too many setups? A similar problem to a discussion about the virtues of SETs (If this is right, and that is right, then they are wonderful, otherwise...). Not about laying blame, but the fact is that the problem is the passive if it can't work for certain types of sources and amps, though when it appropriate it can work very well indeed, but the passives do have their inherent limitations for being a SOTA solution in many cases. |
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I agree completely, which is why discussions and assessments of of amps, speakers,cables, tubes etc. outside of complete system context (let alone personal taste)while useful as a guide, are no substitute for listening to something in your room with your other equipment - which is why I always say "with my amp and my speakers, this preamp....." |
There is at leat one fella that designs a passive preamp around his amps, Roger Modjeski if Music Reference - a "simple" resistor-based attenuator - of course it is house with an active phono stage. He is adamant about the superiority of a passive linestage, which get's my attention knowing is perfectly capable of designing any kind of premaplification he wants. I still use an active preamp with his amps though.... |
Now I read my post, and I wasn't even drinking. Next Agon upgrade -- spell checking. |
Herman, part of you thinking is that passives in the right system are superior to actives, I wonder if it might also be true that passive resistor based attentuation is superior to tranformer or autoformer passive attentuation IN THE RIGHT SYSTEM, due to the much simpler design, or is the impedance matching that comes from TVC/AVC is simply almost always better in most systems. Modjeski, who I obviously think highly of, argues for resitor based attenuation, but that flies a bit in the face of what you will hear from most Agon passive adopters. Now Roger actually has an explanation why that I can't understand:), but it does seem to be based on some knowledge of electrical engineering of which I know almost nothing. |
Sure, it is close to a straight wire. But, they must also have a disadvantage. Alber Porter wend from Placette to DarTzeel, but why? What does a great active linestage do that the passive can't? The answer is straigtfoward when it is an issue of needing gain or impedance matching, but he did not seem to need either in his original set up. However, I'm interested in getting some insight into the resistor versus transformer issue, on the assumption that most all of us are in no need of gain for our sources and that our amps are sensitive with fairly high input impedance. |
Yes, Goldpoint seems to offer a range of Zin ratings, but have no idea how that effects the Zout or what would optimal for a 100kohm load. I like the "idea" of an RVC, it just seems a lot of less complicated with less wire and iron that the transformer approach. Where is Aball when you need him? |
Just bought an Goldpoint SA1 25kohm volume control. Proabably a more direct assessment than talk. Phd, see what you started:) |
Yes, many approaches to finding sound we like individually, why I will proabaly keep my Joule and Atma-sphere preamps, no matter how much I might like the Goldpoint - they will sound different, none like the real thing, but all enjoyabkle in their own right. Not only does Modjeski prefer passives, but has said the debate is really silly as he thinks the superiority of passives is clear. In sense he might be right, but obviously, many of us still prefer what actives do. Passives are so relatively cheap ($312 for my Goldpoint)that it seems to make sense to have one on hand to play with, and in case a tube or transistors blows in our actives. As for Modjeski, don't him going on power cords.... |
Put me on the list. Will you call it the Clio9? Not a bad name for a preamp. |
Speaking of passives, has anyone had the chance to compare the SMc VRE-1 with the First Watt B1 - no gain, buffered "passives"? |
Tvad, your VRE-1 isn't really a passive, is it? It simply has no gain, which isn't really the same thing - it certainly has buffering which, if needed, will overcome some problems presented to pure passives in the wrong system context, no? |
Anthony, I only got that chance once at RMAF to here the B1, it looked interesting. Did you here it anywhere else, or just that one day? |
Herman doesn't sound inexperienced; not sure he was being rude either. But I do agree that a passive does take more thought to implement correctly than an active, no doubt about that IMHO. |
Herman, maybe you can answer this, under what circumstances would you expect a resistor based passive to perform better than an AVC or TVC. I know they address some issues of impedance matching, but they also add alot of "stuff" between the source and amp. What is your opinion. Roger Modjeski tried explaining it to me (he prefers resistors and no buffering) but I could not understand him after two minutes into his explanation. |
It did help. I ordered a 50 kohm resistor passive from Goldpoint. I do think that 9kohm (I did have a Placette too)wa a bit problematic, but I was not A/Bing with a TVC at the time. But I did have the Placette Active (buffer, no gain)and it was signifncantly better in the bass - but that might simply have been an issue with the 9kohm Zin. Well, I'll have it to listen to soon enough. Thanks. |
I think you have the makings of long-term satisfaction with your system and you can upgrade your music collection, enjoy. |
It is all about system building and matching between components, to the point where it come sometimes be a little misleading to even say what a particular tube sounds like absent any information of the circuit it is used in, I know the Roger Modjeksi's EL34 sound is different the CJs EL34 sound, so your left with the question, what does an EL34 sound like, and answer of course is, "it depends".
So I've been listening to the Goldpoint for a few hours, and without comparing at the this point, I would say that for $2,300 to get a Goldpoint ($312) and a Music Reference RM10MKII ($1950) you could be pretty darn happy running a pair of Merlin VSMs. For $312, the Goldpoint, in the right system is "stupidgood". As good as the Joule or Atmasphere preamps (or the CAT I used to own?)? I don't know yet, but you would be surprised how darn good a $312 preamp can sound. |
Chatta, that is beyond question. I've been going back forth on this a long time, I've concluded that great active linestages are better than passives, but that passives are better than many actives. But there is no doubt, that if you are on a budget, you will get exceptionally good performance from a passive for far less money than getting something comparable from an active at any where near the price point. A nice feature of the CD player is that it has a low and high output level, I can tell you with 4v output stage, there is no loss of dynamics with the passive setup (not reall a problem with 2v either). |
That is very true, for some no active beats a passive in their system. So to answer the original question, many use them becasue they are a very viable opton to SOTA sound, though some still prefer actives for their own reasons, and it not a right or wrong difference, just two approaches and choices. |
A more active argument would be a thread on whether anyone can actually hear ANY difference between power cords of the same guage....... |
The issue of dynamics is sometimes commented on when discussing passives, but I'm not even sure what that means. Does it mean that passives sound compressed, homogenizing the differences between soft and loud volumes in a performance? I'm not sure why that would be. I can understand frequency abberations due to impedance matches, but why would a passive ever be any less dynamic? |
Maybe, but my CD player puts out 4volts in high setting, I would think that would drive anything without any help from a preamp. Impedance matching I get, "drive" seems to be a strawman as far as dynamics. |
Herman, does the 50kohm of my attenuator address that issue, or does it cause problems on the other end into my 100kohm amp load? |
Herman, if the impedances and cable capacitance are right, so that a tranformer doesn't really solve a problem, wouldn't a resistor based passive, like my Goldpoint, perform better than a TVC, especially in terms of bandwidth? Anthony? |
I once did have the Placette RVC and then tried the Placette Active, and what I notice was more articulate bass, I now wonder if the issue was the the RVC simply has too low an input impedance to be optimal in my setup - but it sure was transparent. |
Only to the extent that they offer pots with different ratings. Goldpoint has 10, 20, 25, 50, and 100kohm attenuators, and they'll recommend the right one for your system source and amp. |
so 2 meters of Cardad Golden Reference 12pf/ft should be no problem for the passive approach, with with a 2 meter IC? |
I know it is a good thread when I understand half of it. On the issue of impedance matches and best pot ratings, I see the theoretical, and perhaps measureable difference, but are they audible (to most people)? I suspect that in my setup, whether the pot is 10, 25, or 50 I would ne hear the difference, though my test equipment might. |
just ordered one from george. |
$450 shipped from Australia; it takes two weeks or so before shipping. I get the feeling the Stereophile review is making him busy. It will be interesting to compare with the Goldpoint and then I'll sell one or the other. Either way, these passives are a really "inexpensive" way into some pretty darn good sound. I don't know if I will like them better than my Joule or Atma-sphere preamp, it just may be different, but worth having in the mix. |
Anthony, if the Lightspeed is as good as it seems, I think it and the RM10 would put ALOT of $10-20K pre/amp combos to shame - IF 35 watts is enouuh power. Looking at the diminutive RM10 (size of a hardcover book) reminds me of that old Steinway piano ad about how they laughed as the fella sat at the piano, till he started to play. Can't wait to give the Lightspeed a try, but the Goldpoint ain't chopped liver either. |
What frequencies can "meat on the bone" be found? And are those flesh tones in the source signal, or added later? Or are active tube stages just keeping something from being lost that simply gets sucked up by essentially straight wire connection. Maybe we have a long addiction to distortion, and what it is gone something just seems to be missing. |
I agree and I guess it comes down to how we answer the question, what is the best preamplifier? The one does nothing )very little) to the signal or the one that sounds best to us for whatever reason. In discussing this with Ken Stevens of CAT, he felt a preamp should have the tone color of water - none; that is the job of the preamp, if you want tone color, find it somewhere else in the system or you end up with band aids to complement the various colorations within the system, but the preamp should be as neutral as possible, that's why I think the passive approach is a step in the right direction, if it works nice with your equipment. The Goldpoint is such a piece, and frankly, I don't sense any rolloff or lack of dynamics compared with my Joule and Atma-sphere pres, but it does not sound like them either. |
I know this whole issue is a matter of taste, and will never be resolved, but I will say this for the passive argument. I had this long discussion with Roger Modjeski of Music Reference and RAM Labs - that is, a fella known as one our our great designers of equipment and a tube lover. I asked him, point blank, when I was considering buying his $135 Pot-in-a-Box if it were not possbile for any active preamp to be better, he said no. Now I know there are many of us that love our actives, I do, but he is one pretty qualified person to talk about preamps since he can design whatever he wants, and he does love tubes, but in his view a passive does what a preamp should do IF it is in a good source to amp environment. It at least made me feel that a passive isn't just a cheap solution to volume control, but for some might be as good as it gets for a preampifier (in the right system). |
PhD, for some reason, George sold it to me for $415, but you do have to buy a 12DVC 400mA AC/DC adapter, which seem to only be available in Canada, ended costing $30 for the unit plus shipping. |
