Hmmm.
Looks like the orig version of this thread was shifted from amplifiers to Tech talk. I debated myself on which one choosing amps instead.
A number of posts were made to that one with many good thoughts. All were and are certainly appreciated.
To put a point onto this exercise I’ve found myself lusting after several amps, and several brands of speakerage. Few were measured by Stereophile. Some are quite new and or newer versions of previous iterations so that might explain why. However, it leaves me pondering not so much which would be optimum, but which amp should be omitted from the collection of possible marriages.
Atop my never heard speaker list are Vienna Acoustic Music and Listz. TAD E one floor standers are next. The rest of the list contains speakers I will likely be able to hear soon enough….
KEF Blades I & II
Wilson Sabrinas, Sashas
Magico S5 latest ver.
Eggelston Ivy, andreas II or III.
Amps on close approach radar are …
Ypsalon Alieus
Gryphon Coloseum
Bermister 911
Master Sound Classic
BAT VK 655se
PSA BHK monos
Pass labs XA has a shot.
Gryphon has a different approach to amp power than you see normally. Their base amp shoves out 150w @ 8, doubling up as IMP halves all the way into 0.5 ohm!!
BAT, Bermester and Ypsalon differ from the doubling up and down crowd relying on caps as reserve power albeit, Gryphon uses this ploy too.
I’m opting into SS land once again as I don’t feel the tube power needed to properly conduct any of the speakers on my list will be a cost effective outcome. I feel most of these speakers will devour low power. Tube amps under 200wpc. Once more, I speculate.
Dunno if this input is needed here, as it was asked for in the Amplifier topic corral. Its here now anyhow.
Has anyone here seen third party measurements on these pieces?
I’ve felt since being a member here and relearning most everything I once knew about electricity, electronics and sound for that matter, that I buy with my ears mainly. My wallet next, and then good judgement or what I can find of it if any remains.
If the sound doesn’t thrill, or no perception of enormous potential is unearthed, I gotta move along. Especially at these prices..
So in my book, science often does not have the last word in my life. Everything it seems requires accommodations, compromise, and tolerance in this world regardless what it is called. .
The anxiety here is choosing an amp which does not have quite the legs it needs for these loudspeakers.
I’m sure all will work with whomever. Yet some great dark concern prevails around picking the power plant which has fascinating sonics, but does not have earth moving power.
Huge thanks for the feedback and insights to all.
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sorry I'm late.
@georgehifi
Thanks for the insights. I sincerely am grateful for them.
RE – compatibility
From what you are saying it remains a dicey prospect to try considering an amp & speaker combo without knowing some of the measurements of the loud speakers. In particular the phase angle…. What ever that is.
georgehifi > Don’t just talk watts, talk about the watts be able to double for each halving of impedance as well.
Blindjim > Hopefully, I’m beginning to get the gist of an amps characteristic to double down in fact, with IMP halving, as it speaks to an amps ability to remain consistent or cohesive when powering the entire bandwidth as the speaker makes its demands for more power here on that freq or less on this freq for whatever SPL is being requested.
Isn’t this ability to instantly supply intricate and exacting speaker demands aided or even supplanted by having on board an enormous cap storage power reserve from which to draw upon?
Installing enormous banks of caps for reserve or auxiliary power does appear a philosophy some makers prefer to employ in their amps topologies wherein the doubling facet is not its inherent trait.
It seems too this is a tact utilized by amp makers that do not use negative feedback designs, and limited gain stages.
As I’m seeing on youtube, and many are seeing in person at shows loads of amps are providing very capable competent performances with a very wide assortment of loudspeakers. Albeit, many amps on display are larger outputting amps. Mostly. Though not all.
Gryphon KODO speaker system for example being driven by their Mephisto 175wpc amp has I believe 32 drivers and overall, weighs a ton. Appears a formidable load for any amp, let alone one rated under 200w @ 8.
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@kosst_amojan > It's kind of assumed that the amp will deliver whatever current the load demands for the voltage. Higher impedance, less reactive speakers do better with current sources though.
Blindjim > huge thanks for the considerate reply.
since I was introduced to Ohm’sLaw decades back I’ve always had to think the proportionate relationship between voltage and current remains constant respective to the load.
Consequently, the mention of each article, voltage and then current being now, somehow unrelated confuses me.
This thing needs voltage… that one neds current… Hmmm. WTH?
Regardless, if a thing needs current or voltage those needs should be met depending on purely the voltage exciting the potential or here, the amp feeding whatever load.
The only question in my mind then is how large to make the supply or categorizing amps as to their outputs, how many watts can this one or that one feed to the load in general?
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And, yes. We’re back to looking at watts… not current or voltages for comparison’s sake. This is not necessarily my desire, but what other more appropriate baseline is there for choosing amplifiers?
My EXP says arguably, when it comes to amps, money often dictates not just the amount of power, but how well it is served and the quality with which it is provided to prospective loads.
Its easy to see as well, there’s no slide rule that solves the riddle of which amp fits which speaker, adequately, very well, or perfectly, and as with most equipment arrangements in audio, it’s a best guess scenario that obliges one to lean on the EXP of the amp and or speaker makerand or that of your own practical real world experience.
… and that is too bad.
And a bit of scary excitement at the same time.
I feel going on the rated or claimed power is the best one can do when finding their way thru the forrest of amplifiers.
Be it an advertising ploy, or hidden because of advertising gratuity, the proof is always on the pudding. Pairing whomever up to whatever will undeniably unfold the truth.
As for the obsessive desire for humongous watt outputting amps, I agree, it is mostly senseless. A belt and suspenders approach for sure. Too many watts is a non issue. Too few is a sincere worry.
Perhaps that notion alone says why many hold to mega watt amps as their default system amp.
Decades back, it was me too.
I’ve seen first hand a pr of EL34 monos putting out reputedly 120wpc, but IMO more like 60wpc as they were but four in each amp… were able to drive to quite satisfying listenting levels a pair of 3 way towers that were rated at 87db 4 ohms. The maker said to me the IMP on these units could drop as low as 1.9 ohms.
Using the 4 ohm taps, things were pretty good. They were here so I had to find out more about this watts vs watts argument first hand. Rated vs measured. Tube vs SS.
At this point all I know is 4 EL 34 tubes wired as ultralinear do quite well with moderately sensitive speakers whose IMP aren’t supposed to be considered tube friendly.
Further eXP from buying used speakers showed me what happens with speakers when someone feels they should use them as PA speakers but only have a 60wpc INT to push them with. Two tweeters needed to be replaced of the four on board as clipping burnt them out..
It took a while for me to figure this out but that is or was indeed the facts. I had the BAT VK 500 at that time and I;’mn sure the Big BAT had enough juice to keep them from clipping..
As for the quality of da watts…. Invariably, I will always have one, and likely two or more amplifiers available at any given time. None are monster amps. All at rated power of < 200wpc. All are SS. Multi ch, 2 ch, and multi ch receivers. The lowest rated output of nay amp is 110wpc. I regularly now use one of these if not more, to run in what ever speaker before even thinking of putting it into a main system. Low to moderate levels for a month.
In the interim, it’s a learning experience to see how few watts it takes to achieve very good results with many various and varied loudspeakers..
The obvious diffs in amp to amp is not volume but Quality of the presentation. Every time.
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@georgehifi
So the upshot is, if you have speakers that are a kind load to the amp, then the amp is not called for to deliver current, and will stay reasonably flat in frequency response.
But if the speakers are a load that asks the amp to deliver current at certain frequencies, and the amp can't, then what happens at those frequencies is the amp "sags" in power at those frequencies and therefore cannot stay flat in frequency response, and becomes a tone control instead.
Blindjim > now this particular note, I feel I understand pretty readily. Thanks.
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@nutty > The laws of physics refuse to be cheated. Long-term, you cannot deliver more power into the speaker than you can pull from the wall.
Blindjim > makes sense. Tanks much.
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@almarg
Regarding the disagreement about whether or not some solid state amps can "double down": As I see it both sides are correct, but are focusing on different things. One side appears to be focusing on **measurable** maximum power capability, and the other side appears to be focusing on **rated** maximum power capability.
Any amplifier having low output impedance can be rated to deliver twice as much power into 4 ohms as into 8 ohms, if the 8 ohm rating provides a large enough margin relative to actual capability. A reputable manufacturer will, or at least should, choose a margin that is large enough to be comfortable relative to anticipated sample-to-sample variations, reasonable variations in line voltage, etc., but at the same time is not a margin that is so large as to be misleading. And likewise when it comes to choosing the distortion percentages upon which the power ratings are based, and in defining whether the power that is being referred to can be delivered continuously or just on a short-term basis.
Blindjim > Mucho gras Al.
Would you mind clearing up this thought of your’s?
Any amplifier having low output impedance can be rated to deliver twice as much power into 4 ohms as into 8 ohms, if the 8 ohm rating provides a large enough margin relative to actual capability
Margin? Section? Area? Range? Who picks them or it? The amp maker, Yes? No>?
I’m so confused.
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Perhaps the slant I see is not as much an argument as it is which side of the coin should one stand upon when deciding to throw IMHO a ton of frog skins at any amplifier whose job it will then be, to drive some unknown, unmeasured loudspeaker!
Be steadfast on the side of measurements alone for both speaker and amp, or capriciously dash ahead towards claimed HP and the amps audible attraction?
Dunno. But I’m begining to.
The ongoing thread here however continues to be IMO about pulling the trigger on what ever amp based solely on its ability to ‘reputedly’ double HP as IMP halves, OR choose one based on a likely ‘best guess’ notion with what appears to be enough watt/HP as you adore the influence the amp presents in music playback.
And the winner is?
Only a very small portion of all amps are being measured by third party outlets, and from what can be gleaned just on this thread, some amp makers aren’t too concerned with providing verifiable data to begin with… or so it seems.
For anyone seeking an imperical or metered method for picking out the next amp, good luck.
The technical side of the coin simply can not deliver a suitable or even just verdict as to how best to choose which watt for what speaker. Especially when taste or user preffs are batteling with the bank account for the priviledge of steering the selection committee.
This whole past time should be called Audio ambiguity.
If at all possible, as monos and run them on the same phase but different ckts. To restrict them less electrically.
The only sensible thing to do, If both are the same or quite similar topology, is to weigh the two final amp choices, and buy the heavier one.
That is one measurement which can’t be hidden or misrepresented.
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@georgehifi
Proper gander
Blindjim > Killer. Very nice. hahahaha
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almarg
weight.
Blindjim > yep. They do be ‘spensive. It’s a matter of taste… faith… trust.
Loudspeaker designers could fix all of this by focusing on building more efficient easier loads and without stonewall x overs. The only prevailing scheme for making speakers easier loads are those which have chosen to support their own bass drivers with amps thus offering a hybrid solution. Fine by me..
Its gonna be interesting.
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@Gryphon Audio > The Gryphon Kodo has active bass cabinets with a dedicated 2000 watt amplifier
Blindjim > many thanks. Sorry. I simply forgot about that aspect of the Kodo’s build.
Regardless, they are quite the impressive loudspeaker.
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Yep. I’ll use a scale and hang my hat on their sonics, then see how it all shakes out. Buy something and play it or them until they dry up, fall apart and eventually disintegrate.
One last note here….
I’ve said in all honesty each mega watt amp or amps I’ve ever heard provided very good to outstanding sonics. Each varied slightly of course, but all were easily keeper arounders for long term.
If its true the best sound is developed in the first watt, portions there of, and a bit thereafter, ala SET amps, why then do these giant amps have such an inviting enjoyable sound while having the where with all to push out 400 – 600wpc @ 8 ohms?
Sure, during any sane listenting sessions it or they are not kicking out welder like current into the speakers. Instead, supplying the same amount more modest amps would deliver to the speakers.
So is it their over built construction that is providing the more sailient voice? The fact these immense power houses are merely loafing along and under
no duress?
IMO? I’ll throw a dart at build, once more, or rather, over build.
Thanks for the insights everyone.
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@kosst_amojan . design a speaker that sounds good, not treats the amp kindly. A competent amp deals with it.
Blindjim > I have no argument for that what so ever. Wisdom filled words. Thank you. However, it doesn’t seem to resolve the question presented herein.
Unreproachable built amps with solid power resources seems the solution, although the exact output or capacity of the amp and how one determines it beforehand with respect to any speaker remains elusive.
Naively I thought out there somewhere was a formula, theory, or practice apart from practical past experiences which would satisfy it. It looks like there is none.
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@atmasphere > @blindjim that description really sounds like the amp clipping- all bets are off at that point.
OK. lets be clear on what clipping actually is for a change.
I thought it was an insufficient supply of power to a drivers demands or desires to produce a set of frequencies at a particular volume level..
Or IOW, a driver being starved of necessary voltage.
EX. Sony HT receiver w/120wpc + BW 9s, and later BW 802s. replacing the sony amp with a Krell KaV 250 no fuzziness or softness was perceived..
EX 2
Jamo R909s with BC 500 mono blocks.
I can’t help but feel after the upgrade in EX 1, and the Jamo + BC 500 amps, clipping was not an issue.
Please, correct me if I’m flatly wrong.
@atmasphere > are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others even with similar hard varying loads.
Blindjim > huh? Sorry Ralph, but You obviously have my remarks confused with someone else’. I never alluded to anything remotely disparaging regarding Gryphon amps. Nor did I make any reference to Wilson speakers.
Check your reference… you must have meant someone else yet did not include their handle to indicate your words were directed to them..
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@atmasphere
Thanks. I sort of thought so but wasn’t sure.
I’m reading thru amp measurements done here and there, and often the terms get conveyed as ‘db’ losses or gains of voltage, I suspect. When the DB comes up, I am lost.
Anyone point me to how voltage or current is converted to db with a link or simple explanation? I feel I’m missing something the person measuring the amp is saying.
Thanks.
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@atmasphere
Thank you.
You said earlier, there are a lot of amps that will work for you.
I agree. Finding the exact right one is the issue. Or exact right 3 for that matter. Or even finding the exact wrong ones helps too.
I think, knowing no better, it would be an easier task were more speakers 8 ohm impedance.
RE speaker eff
I often see sensitivity and impedance figures noted by makers on their speakers. Now, I’ve been reading where possible, measurements are made on which ever unit, and am often lost once more until the final analysis commentary arrives indicating if the tester felt positive or not about what all they saw from this or that model.
Although, I don’t routinely see an item declared as speaker efficiency, per se.
Is this a product of some other factors or measurements? Or is efficiency another term for sensitivity?
I’m thinking this is more involved than that somehow.
Best regards
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@almarg
Hi Al. Thank you.
finally I’m able to comprehend fairly well what you said. Almost.
I feel I was already on board with your preliminaries. XDB @ 1w, or XDB at 2.83v.
As for that -3db item regarding 4 ohm impedance speakers, is this attribute a constant with respect to power across the bandwidth?
IN other words, with a 4 ohm IMP whatever speaker will it always be 3db down in SPL at what ever rated amplifier output that it would be if an 8 ohm load was present?
I got the impression making a speaker IMP 4 ohms incidentally obtained automatically about a 2 – 3db gain in response or sensitivity.
Another item has my attention with respect to amplifiers. Gain.
Actually, matching pre amps (lines, DAC, etc) with what ever amplifier. Each amp, has its own amount of gain.
Regularly we see here and elsewhere, output to input IMP should have 1 to 10 ratios. 1K out IMP needs a 10K input or better.
Is there as well a general rule of thumb for preamp gain and amplifier gain one should keep in mind irrespective of the load when choosing a preamp & power amplifier match?EX.
Keep the line stage gain at 25% of the power amp rated gain.
Keep the line stage gain at 50% of the power amp rated gain.
Keep the line stage gain at 75% of the power amp rated gain.
Or this relationship is not how or where to look best for synergistic or electrical matching purposes?
Best regards…
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RE – testing and verifying speaker or amplifier specs
I suppose one avenue is to look towards amplifier & loudspeaker makers individual reps.
Some speaker makers are decidedly making their units aimed squarely at lower powered amps like SET. More than a fair number of monitors stay in a more ‘easy’ range many amps will like to see too.
The rest whose EFF or as they rate them in IMP at 4 ohms or lower, despite their rated sensitivities, are probably saying use decent amplification here. As a fair number of maker spec sheets often include minimum power ratings for their units. Albeit, the speaker makers seldom if ever indicate what listening levels one will derive using an amp outputting their minimum recommended wattage.
Apart from first hand evals a good reviewer will drive what ever speaker with several amps for comparisons sake and detail those desparities in their accounts.
Then too, some are mighty vague saying only “these speakers enjoy power”. Or ABC speakers worked best with a lot of power or a powerful amp. This leads one to believe they MUST employ a substantial power plant and no less, if that speaker is picked for a system.
Of course, one can deny the accounts and reviewer’s reviews as mere advertising and as such all bets are off regarding probative value or integrity contained within the account.
At some point however, we gotta believe someone somewhere on something.
The vast majority of people neither have the inclination, training, or resources to get uot there and test everything, everywhere, everytime. Nor would many want to.
It isn’t wrong to expect device makers demonstrate good faith in the specs they claim either. It does seem a bit naïve to lean more than lightly onto them of late.
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Got it.
Thanks Al.
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More than interesting.
Thanks George.
Do you know if the Sabrinas and later model Sash’s have similar IMP traces as the Wilson’s you just mentioned here?
I’m hearing from this person and that, they have listend to the Sabrina and Sasha with very modest power amps, even < 100 wpc., tube amps and really enjoyed what they heard.
BTW, Does that third party measuring facility come with any verifiable credentials? What’s the annual subscription run? Do they cover as much as Stereophile, or more?
Again, I do appreciate the input and all the effort.
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Imhififan > Wolcott.
Blindjim > Thanks. Nice thoughts.
I thought they quit making these amps. I looked hard at it many years ago as a choice. I think then however, the cost was out of reach very likely as they seldom if ever appear on the used pages for sale.
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@stfoth > I often tell them not to overthink it and just order a decent Champagne, especially on a date or in a group. 95% idiot-proof.
Blindjim > thanks much. I tend to agree. I suspect this should be the ‘default’ answer for anyone who is either in doubt as to which way to upgrade, update, or just start a first audio build in terms of which amp to go with, keeping budgetary considerations in mind.
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@atmasphere > all amplifiers that are capable of acting as a voltage source are push-pull, and such amps (with rare exception) have distortion characteristics wherein the distortion actually **increases** below a certain minimum power level, typically about 5-7% of full power. So if you use a speaker that is too efficient for the amp, you will not be getting the best sound out of it.
Blindjim > thanks for the links and observations. outstanding.
Ralph, why do you have to make this affair harder,? Lol
First 5 – 7%? I’ll presume this initial area pertains directly to the scenario you presented, otherwise, isn’t the first 10 – 20% of a class AB amp where one finds Class A functionality, and many adore that area of operation.
As for Damping, referring to another article from a JBL rep I saw online written some time back, the idea of rated damping factors is nearly fantasy when viewed practically vs rated given so many factors can and do intervien altering the amps ability to actually perform damping.
I read another one from a different source but a likewise quite technically oriented soul which is more recent but collaterally confirms damping ratings as nearly superfluous when put to practice. IOW picking amps based on damping ratings is not a true key spec one should lean on too heavily or at all.
Atmas > The bottom line is that equipment matching is still very much with us and won't be going away anytime soon.
Blindjim > lovely. And after all that great technical data, it comes to that? Super. ;-))
Many thanks.
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@gdhal > anything that can be done to extend Class A amp longevity?
Blindjim > as was said, ventilation.
Better still…. control the ambient temperature better immediately about the amp. Make the joint sweater wearing listening, or place the amp into an area where its quite cold via a dedicated AC. Heat kills. Especially extensive, and extended applications of it. Also, running it only in advance of listening sessions seems a prudent course of action, and in the interim keep a signal passing thru it as no signal allows it/them to produce their excessive temps given the way they operate in signal vs no signal eff.
I mean, if a pair of class A mono is gonna run ya $20K to God knows K, maybe spending a grand or two for extra cooling aint’ such a bad idea.
It is also why I like and use the idea of placing amps into an area apart from the listening room and cooling that area independently, and use remote extenders for operation.
I simply used an adjacent room and used longer speaker cables.
Later, I enclosed off a section of the listening room so a space was allowed for everything to be in that walk in closet like area accessed by bi fold doors in the middle of a false wall.
In either case, AC cools things quite well.
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IMO The number one issue with any and all of this speculation, rhetoric, and suspense is due to the lack of proliferation of the products sought, and the likely bigger attribute deeply set into the being of the audio possessed psyche who constantly notices the grass is, or might be greener on the other side.
Often we can’t just waltz across town to listen to the apple of our eyes. Usually the ??? piece is far far away making it more a dream or fantasy than a real option.
Distance however, does not prevent one from thinking, or believing that logistically out of reach piece either ‘is’ or could be the solution!
The mind is a terrible thing!
The scenario changes drastically and becomes a real quagmire when this same fool (meaning ‘me’) decides he wants to reroute his path from the SS highway and take a more scenic glass powered state road byway instead.
‘to thine own self be true’.Nice to hear perhaps, lots harder to do. ‘Once bitten, twice shy’ comes to mind during that wrestling match with being true to myself. The shoulders which get pinned to the mat are always the ones appealing SS power. despite their simpler nature and how they can be amended, they keep losing the match.
Return bouts with SS vs Tubes are perpetuated ONLY from what is being noticed by way of a desired loudspeaker’s demands for I/E from the amp. Either in reality, or in my head.
One example that keeps turning in my head is a user account of a particular speaker and how they decided that seemingly, watts alone made the speaker perform best.
This account said on pages right her that it worked well with 300wpc. Then better with 400, much better with 500 and then its very best with 600wpc!!
Along that way, nothing was said of the better build of each amp used in that trek. Merely an annotation of the power level, or available power itself was given the ‘spotlight’. I’ve found as have many here, when an amp retials for $60K vs an amp that retials for $6K, there is usually some disparity in the quality of the sound iself, not merely their possible power outputs.
Regardless, the note on power alone keeps revolving saying look to more power… and maybe quality too. But power first!
Its very disconcerting.
Throw in the fact many amps will indeed power what ever speaker, albeit to what ever degree of efficiency or optimization, and the apparent formulae for amp selection gets twisted and convoluted a bit more.
Wanna make the selection process still more difficult? Up the ante on the purchase prices. A lot. A whole lot. To the point where you’re actually playing with, or about to play with scared money.
For the uninitiated scared money is a gambling term. It means you should not be playing in that game if you’re using the mortgage, rent or child support funding, or simply can’t afford to lose the bet. Or such a cost puts you way out of your comfort zone. This is why ya need to know the players more than the cards most of the time and one of the ideas behind this thread.
Mapman said it and so has Atmas. Despite the actual values, specs, and ratings, synergy seems to claim numerous avenues which end up at its doorstep. Synergy, like beauty is in the ear of the listener.
I will whenever possible opt for the item whose quality I perceive is greater, if the electrical compatibility needs are even close. If I can swing it financially. Even if it hurts a little at first. Even for a while. When possible.
In the end, this is all about perception, which is indeed reality, then the sound, not the optimization is key. Argue it any way possible and it always comes out the same way.
I believe with all due considerations, a set of quality amps running a set of quality speakers will yield an ‘as’ commensurate presentation.
My hat is in the ring of best sounding amp, over that of the reputed ‘right’ electrically matched amp within reason, of course for one simply can not ignore outright, the factors amps and speaker marriages need for compatibility..
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