almarg
thanks, I could handle multi-million budgets for my clients projects, but this kind of math, my mind just won't go there at my age. I appreciate simplifying it to 20x
Given that 20x will be good for this .3mv cartridge, I suppose it might be wise to have some extra boost for a possible lower signal MC, what would you suggest as max? |
how about an old Lionel Train Transformer! They were variable, but man did they hum. |
I definitely got your point about not over doing it, for this or any cartridge, I was just imagining a variable transformer, and a bypass would be easy to do wouldn't it?
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Oh,
I was imagining infinite boost choices, like a volume dial, zero up to the units designed max.
hmmm, more to learn.
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Pass Thru, Zero Boost Option?
Using my Rear Arm, changeable headshell, one din cable from tonearm
1. SUT boost of MC cartridge
2. switch to MM Mono cartridge, If SUT had a bypass, or zero boost, I wouldn't need to move wires.
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I found this, which I now have some understanding of
https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/consolidated-audio-sut
Consolidated offers three main models- • Low Impedance / High Ratio (1:20): For lowest output cartridges like SPU, Lyra with an output voltage of less than 0,3 mV • Medium Impedance / Medium Ratio (1:15): If asked for a universal "one size fits all" step-up transformer we would recommend this configuration for cartridge impedances up to 20 ohms and output levels between 0,2 and 0,5 mV • High Impedance / Low Ratio (1:10): For cartridges with an output level of more than 0,3 mV like EMT TSD Enclosure dimensions 4.75" dia x 6" height, weight 6 lbs. Available in black or silver finish.
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mulveling
thanks for adding your help here
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rauliruegas happily my mx110z has 2 phono inputs that denon au-320 has the 2 inputs and pass, but I would use only 1 input for rear tonearm’s cable: 3 or 40 setting for MC, and use the PASS for my any MM, typically my MONO, correct? it shows 3 ohm and 40 ohm, how do I translate that into gain factor? this guy says very nice, accepts returns 100% rating https://www.ebay.com/itm/333632155436 |
this dealer says SUT into MM sounds better than MC preamps to line
Warren JarrettAudio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OCLocation: Fullerton, CALong before I started representing Music First Audio and Audio Note I gave up on fully active amplification of the tiny signal from a MC cartridge. I have compared many, many preamps, phono preamps and step-ups. Most step-up transformers do indeed sound compressed. Most fully active MC phono preamps do indeed sound "electronic". But the best transformer step-ups into a MM phono stage have sounded much better, to me, in every way compared to the best active head-amps or MC capable phono preamps.
Now that I carry transformer step-ups from both Music First Audio and Audio Note (and MM-only phono preamps from both), it has been very easy for me to demonstrate this. I have a very nice MC-capable Krell preamp, that sounds better with any of these step-up transformers into its 47000-Ohm MM input. And, I encourage anyone who is interested to borrow one of my demo step-ups, to try in their own home, and find out for themselves.
The answer to your question, in my opinion, is yes. Listen to your MC cartridge, into the MM input with a good step-up transformer that is matched properly to the cartridge. If you tell me what cartridge you have, its output impedance (or coil resistance), and output mV, I can tell you what range of step-up ratio will work well for you.
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later he added
So the most versatile approach is to try a 1:20 transformer which has a provision for adding loading resistors, or is adjustable with built-in resistors. The next best solution is to compare more than one transformer, within a step-up ratio range between 1:30 and 1:20.
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I think I am getting this, lemme know if I got it wrong
i'm just doing some math to learn the formulas
of course when you know this stuff it's intuitive
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Impedance change factor is square of amount of transformer boost
47,000 (typical MM phono input)
47,000 divide by change factor = resultant actual impedance
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"
The recommendation of Rothwell Audio Products is in line with Ortofon, Audio Technica and most other cartridge manufacturers - that 100 ohms is a good value for most cartridges, and that the exact value is not critical as long as it is well above the cartridge's source impedance."
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signal strength: enough, but avoid too high, say 5mv max (easy math)
impedance is what effects the sound
too low = dull. too high = too bright
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AT33PTG/2 is .3mv and coil 10 ohm impedance
coil 10 ohm x 10 = 100 ohm goal (average)
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working backwards from desired impedance average of 100
47,000 divided by 100 = 470.
470 is square of 21.5 (boost factor found working backwards)
.3mv cartridge x 21.5 = 6.45mv = TOO HIGH SIGNAL STRENGTH
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lower the signal strength means lower the boost means impedance goes up, just don't go up too much
IF desired max signal 5mv divided by .3mv = 16.7 signal boost.
16.7 squared is 279
47,000 divided by 279 is 168 ohms resultant impedance, not bad!
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typical boost 10x or 20x, not 16.7 unless custom built.
.3mv x 10 is 3mv, TOO LOW? (mx100z phono sensitivity is 3mv)
.3mv x 20 is 6mv" TOO HIGH?
I PICKED THE WRONG DAMNNN CARTRIDGE!!!
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Resistors, parallel with Transformer's secondary are a method of adjusting the impedance
i.e. 100k resistor across 47,000 is 32,000
"NO RESISTOR sounds as good as NO RESISTOR"
OMG
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this fidelity research FRT-4 is quite versatile don't anybody buy it, I might buy my 75th birthday gift 3 years early 3 inputs; 3;10; 30; 100 settings AND Pass
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fidelity-Research-FR-FRT-4-MC-Step-Up-Transformer/224002964237?hash=item34279dfb0d:g:z9MAAOSwGhRetPWr
specs
ManufacturerFidelity-Research/ Fidelity ResearchModel number: FRT-4. specificationModel Model MC Cartridge Toroidal Core Step-up TransformerNext Impedance 3 ohm/10 ohm/30 ohm/100 ohm switchPASS(selectable) Load impedance 47kΩ to 57kΩ 50kΩPressure increase3Ω:31.1dB(35.84 times)10Ω:26.3dB(20.68x)30Ω:25.2dB(18.27 times)100Ω:20.0dB(10.55 times) Frequency response 20Hz to 30kHz Distortion Within measurement error range up to 2 Vrms of output voltage External dimensions: 170mm (W) x 60mm (H) x 180mm (D) Purchased new decades ago.Price at the time.54,000 yen (circa 1978)
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Cartridge just delivered, ordered 2 days ago. Amazon Prime is a waste of a lot of fuel for single item deliveries, but nice when you want it quick.
I jerk myself around when learning new stuff, so thanks for all your patience. And I always imagine others learning like myself following along
certainly I like the features of the Denon AU-320, and you have all given me confidence,
not to mention, Bill will be bringing his Denon SUT, that's what I will hear for the first time.
Nice to know 6mv is not too high. Changing the volume is easy, using 11 o'clock with 5mv shure now.
I just found an Ortofon ST-7 (single input, no bypass) it's specs:
Frequency response: 15-45 kHz (+0 dB -2,5 dB)
Gain: 24 dB at 1 kHz
Recommended cartridge impedance: 2 Ω - 60 Ω
Recommended load: 47 kΩ // 200 pF
chart I found converted +24db to 15:81x
result then 4.75mv (before loss); 188 ohms
I like how many Denon's are for sale, not too costly.
Yes, Bob's Devices Sky looks awesome, I am hoping to keep the cost down
AT-650, I like the three options 3, 20, 40 and it has Pass, the 20 input gives an optional/potentially preferable sounding choice. (for this or future MC after I get hooked, the Pandemic never goes away, I keep wearing out cartridges!!!
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hopping about, see some vintage stuff, do these transformers age well? Denon more modern look, dc in from separate power supply 100v, I'd need a 120/100 pre-transformer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-HA-1000-Step-up-transformer-head-amplifier-Working-Properly-F-S-d530/254589438969?epid=1040361048&hash=item3b46b68bf9:g:xqgAAOSweYBesriC
Thorens, 12v, low 22db, high 32db, bypass
https://www.ebay.com/itm/THORENS-Step-up-Transformer-PPA990-NEW-c1091/324210004828?hash=item4b7c6c135c:g:UMcAAOSwYAVefCjm&autorefresh=true
sony 3, 40, pass and front on/off
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-HA-55-MC-cartridge-head-amplifier-Step-Up-Transformer-import-Japan/174120794119?hash=item288a687807:g:rckAAOSw6l1d7pT5
UTC A-11
altec switchable, 16:1 or 32:1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133457836840
fidelity research frt-3 10 or 30. 26db or 31db, pass https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fidelity-Research-FRT-3-Step-Up-Transformer-MC-Phono-Cartridge-USED-JAPAN-fr-64/193131068733?hash=item2cf7823d3d:g:y0cAAOSw2YpdapVv
An OLD DOG, like me, 20:1, simply vintage
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Klangfilm-Siemens-T-42-2e-step-up-transformer/133312407153?hash=item1f0a09e671:g:XU0AAOSwiaVeKCWe
Sony in-line blocks HA T10, +26db
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-HA-T10-Step-Up-Transformer-MC-Moving-Coil-Phono-Cartridge-USED-JAPAN-RARE/193131071248?hash=item2cf7824710:g:pYMAAOSwLNpblKR6
Denon HA-500 24db 32db pass
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-HA-500-Step-up-transformer-head-amplifier-AC100V-Free-Shipping-d1030/264728266720?hash=item3da308c7e0:g:UVQAAOSwkZleuiRY
JVC 30 ohm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-Victor-MC-T100-MC-Step-Up-Transformer/264781535201?hash=item3da63597e1:g:OJAAAOSwy~Je~Ctp
Cinemag 4 ratios:
1:9, 1:12, 1:18 and 1:36 (l or l+r?) (no pass)
1:18 on AT-33PTG/2 would be 5.4mv; 145 ohms
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moving-Coil-Phono-Step-Up-Transformer-Cinemag-3440AH-4-Ratios-1-9-1-36-MC-SUT/193558279772?hash=item2d10f8f65c:g:pwAAAOSwdehfBJnw
I'll Make My Own
https://www.ebay.com/itm/COIL-WINDING-EQUIPMENT-MODEL-W-S-N-1171-T-440393A-w-FOOT-SWITCH-COUNTER/133247476931?hash=item1f062b24c3:g:LOkAAOSwUHld1tb9
??? Why can't they make one like this ???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STACO-Energy-3PN1010B-Variable-Auto-Transforer/173800804939?epid=15006512759&hash=item287755d24b:g:EawAAOSwrdlcaySU:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!07062!US!-1
Empty Box ready for your 9 pin transformers of choice
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moving-Coil-Phono-Step-Up-box-for-RCA-MI-12399-Transformers-MC-SUT-Bogen-T155-HK/193511613150?hash=item2d0e30e2de:g:05gAAOSwcTZeqOW9
same for smaller diameter transformers
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moving-Coil-Phono-Step-Up-box-for-Sansui-A-603-9-pin-plug-in-Transformers-MCSUT/124163160221?hash=item1ce8b3789d:g:Z2EAAOSwxTZdaaw9
............................. Finally, Maestro's Remote Controlled Variable Transformer, from the Listening Position. Two required for Stereo
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lutron-Remote-MA-RH-Maestro-Dual-Control-Dimmer-White-NEW/303506335792?epid=1300142038&hash=item46aa632830:g:kSkAAOSwnAJeX72R
................................ Tiring, but, I had fun seeing how various companies/designers solved things over the years |
Demagnetizer, who loses sleep over this? Miyajima Labs sometimes include demagnitizing built in "When several months pass, a stepup transformer and the cartridge are magnetized. The demagnetizer short-circuits ... " If true, couldn’t I use my demagnetizing wand for my reel to reel decks for this? |
barry
thanks, I'll check it out. I get the earball thing, now that I realize what it's all about.
I've resisted even mouthing the words Moving Coil since they needed humming boosters when I was young, it is all new to me. I enjoy learning, and sharing my finds with 'imagined' others.
I'm a retired Interior Designer, specialized in Corporate Headquarters: New, Relocations, Renovations. Interior Architect actually, as practiced in NYC, PA, Wash DC, traveled hither and thither. I became more informed bit by bit progressively for 50 years. I researched everything, designed much custom work, selecting, presenting options to my clients, ordering a gazillion things. Select and present a full line of chairs, mail room to President's office, for a new 250,000 sq ft headquarters project, it's exhausting. I was not going to tell a client 'this is the best choice', and find something 'better' that I didn't know about a week later.
Now, for myself, i.e. that Fidelity Research FR-4. It truly appeals to me, and it did not pop up in my search until after a lot of searching. No one mentioned it. New, it's features and quality, would cost ___? It's hard for me not to 'add to cart' and put this search to bed. |
I went thru all the notes, every recommendation, every one I found. I couldn't put myself or you thru any more research. I got mail to open, bills to pay today deadline! I chose the Fidelity Research FRT-4 because: 3 inputs, bypass and 4 settings: 3 ohms,10 ohms, 30 ohms,100 ohms For this cartridge .3mv/10ohm: 10 ohm = 21x = 6.3mV = 107 ohm load 30 ohm = 18x = 5.5mv = 140 ohm load
3 ohm and 100 ohm options for unknown future MC
MM pass thru for my Mono Cartridge I like 3 inputs option too, you never know. Unit tested, seller knows electronics, 100% rating, takes returns https://www.ebay.com/itm/333648114135?ul_noapp=true
So, 'add to cart'. $630. + ship + tax + fees
.................................. It's all Bill's fault I fell into this MC rabbit hole. Thanks to everyone, it was a treat to go back and review the whole thread. This forum has been good to me. Elliott |
Carver, Vintage?
looked up the Carver cube, 1981, 39 years old, I think it qualifies as vintage, but it looks as modern today as it did in 1981. I’ve been careful with it’s cheap speaker clips, but it’s doing a very nice job in my office. No power switch, no vol or balance, just On when plugged in. Separate control needed to turn it off, or unplug it.
I’ve got his AM/FM Tuner also, same modern look. Technically amazing, but the mx110z tuner’s tube sound beats it easily. mx110z needs a good signal, I put a separate TV/FM antenna in attic aimed directly at WBGO Jazz. Someone here (my memory sucks, sorry I can't remember whom) pointed out their antenna is actually in NYC. I found it online, happily my aim goes over Newark to the antenna there. Their signal is improved but still sucks. My Volvo C70's crappy antenna isn't good enough. Oh well, public radio. |
rauliruegas
you know I respect your opinion, my thinking is I prefer vintage, and Bill’s Denon will be here to compare, so my 71 year old ears will decide. Shielding, ??? I won’t tolerate any hum, I have none now, back it will go, however, I have some confidence in Fidelity Research quality. I have 30 days to return it, I don’t think cost of shipping is a big risk to get all these options/features. Beyond 30kh, my beloved horn T350 tweeters are rated 3500 to 23kh https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/T350%20EDS.pdf I started, still have the T35, changed to T350, https://audioxpress.com/article/remembering-the-electro-voice-t35-super-tweeter spares of both as well as the 15w woofers https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/15W,%2015BW,%2015WK,%2015BWK%20EDS.pdf I have original pair and spare Fisher 80az mono amps ready if my Cayin blows up (no hum) https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fisher_80_az80az.html Like I say, I like/prefer Vintage. Except for the new Russian Blackbird 12.5" tonearm, my main Denon T81 TT, rear Acos arm (where this new MC cartridge will alternate with Mono MM), and new to me office Vertical TT LT-5V, and my Teac X2000r Reel to Reels are vintage. Speakers in my office are vintage B&W bookshelf with vintage Velodyne 12" powered sub-woofer. Can Carver 400t Cube Amp be considered Vintage? If not, I’ll haul my shop Tandberg 2080 Receiver up here. Not to forget, mx110z downstairs is awesome vintage tube tuner/preamp. |
I need to look into a better antenna, my wife's car and friends car get it clearly.
I have come to like public radio, even gave them some money. |
audioguy85
you mead to use in the DIY box?. I realized, even if I did that, I wouldn’t have the versatility of the Vintage Fidelity Research FRT-4 I ordered which is coming slowly from Japan: MM bypass, 4 load choices, 3 inputs.
four resultant loads for this AT33PTG/2 10 ohm cartridge: 107; 140; 360; 419
This is my first MC, Bill’s Denon SUT and another of his SUT’s will also be here to compare. |
rauliruegas
I never thought your comment was anything but logical concern, certainly not a mistake. When I thank the forum, you are high on the list of helping members. Once again, I learned everything I needed here to make an informed choice. Not everyone takes the risks I do with vintage stuff, I am more careful than is apparent, and take the long view, if a THING is a problem, it should be the biggest problem in my life. In this case, returns accepted, it was minimal risk for an extremely versatile unit with presumed quality, and settings closely bracketing the 'formula ideal' of my specific cartridge, and future options. Luckily, I have never had to return anything except new stuff, which encourages more vintage risk.
I am very happy to report the Fidelity Research FRT-4 unit arrived from Japan in 6 days, and is absolutely invisible audibly, except what it does, and the subtle differences when you alter the input settings as you experienced MC people know. Hooked it up last night, and played my Father's Day prize from my son, 'Best of Sade' Double LP, and heard MC cartridge in my system for the first time. New AT33PTG-II, .3mv; 10 ohm, MicroLine on boron. It sounded fantastic. Bill is forgiven for pushing me down this rabbit hole I refused to look down for so many years. All the MC boosters I heard on Stereo Row in NYC many years ago had hum, I had no idea how silent good ones are. And, let's face it, MC is an expensive road. First listen I preferred the 10 ohm/118 ohm setting rather than the 30 ohm/148 ohm setting, however, the slight volume difference undoubtedly influenced my initial impression. Today comparisons to my MM Shure V15Vxmr body with Jico SAS on boron, and equal volume comparisons. btw, I'm not using the Jico brush any more, it sounds better without it. The real dampened brush of Shure OEM stylus never sounded different like this one does. The big risk was that 'no return' tonearm from Russia, whew, took me months of desire before I went for it. I had eBay/PayPal protection, and I bought a 3 year warranty from Square Trade (discussed it was singular from Russia with Sq. Trade first). Very tricky install, but paid off. Wanted long, got 12.5" effective Carbon arm. The MC is on the vintage Acos Lustre GST-801 magnetic adjustable arm, I think you were instrumental helping me decide and get it. Thanks again! |
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