Which is better for a DBA (Swarm); powered subs or unpowered?


I want to start building a swarm (starting with 2 subs), on a budget.  Starting with $1000, am I better off buying two used powered subs, three less expensive used powered subs, or a subwoofer amp (eg Dayton SA1000) and two (less expensive) used unpowered subs?  What is the advantage of having a discrete subwoofer amp?  Room size is 13'x22'. 
cheeg

Showing 9 responses by cheeg

Great responses -- thank you!
@spenav what is REW?
@spenav and @noble 100 How would you send the wireless signal to the sub? Wouldn't that eliminate the benefit of reducing the main amp's need to drive the lows?
@noble100 I may hit you up for that series/parallel wiring info; is the benefit related to controlling the impedance of the swarm, or something else?
@millercarbon thanks for the details -- you have a beautiful system, but I couldn't tell from the photos if you were using both powered and unpowered. Do you run your powered subs through the sub amp, too? If so, what is the advantage?
@mofojo I'm pretty sure you can run 4 passives off of a Dayton, but I'm not sure about the Crown. Maybe someone else who knows can respond.

Some subs (I think REL is one) allow you to wire them in a way that reduces the burden on the main amp to cover frequencies below a set cutoff, like 80Hz. Does anyone know if that is possible with the Dayton? Finally (thanks for your patience), is it advisable to use all the same brand/model of subs in the swarm, or does it not matter?

mc -- thanks for leading me through that photo. Sorry to belabor the point, but I'm still not sure what's going on (if you'd rather do this offline, please let me know how I can DM you). It looks like you have two Dayton amps powering 4 subs, and a powered Talon sub that gets its signal from a bypass through the Daytons (presumably the cable that's half red and half copper colored is going out to that sub); I assume that's because you didn't have another line output available on the Melody. I think one channel (white POC) is going to one Dayton and another (red POC) going to the other. I'm not sure why you use 2 Daytons; does one not have enough power for 4 subs? If so, does that mean you're only powering 2 subs with each Dayton, and feeding them the same (white) channel on both their L and R inputs? Also, it looks to me like the two silver cables with the 3 bands are going from a two channel Melody output to an input on what looks like a CD player -- or is that an output from the CD to a Melody input? Again, sorry for all the questions -- they really should have flunked me out of engineering...

Thanks for all the new responses! Let's see if I have this right:

@ieales doesn't like Dayton subs b/c they have "no delay so there is time smearing. What you end up with is a fat, detail-less low end pillow."

@b_limo seems to agree with @ieales, at least to the extent that "with the dayton amp, you aren’t able to adjust [the phase of] each one independent from the other", which is needed if the subs aren't equally spaced from the listening position. Makes sense.

@clearthink also seems to agree with @ieales, unless the listener likes loud, thumping bass (I do not, unless I'm wasted and listening to loud, poorly produced classic rock (which does happen, but not as often as I'd like).

@audiorusty seems to lean toward powered subs over one bass amp, because they have more individual control. But he cautions that DBAs are more easy to integrate, since you only have one amp to adjust. My response would be that I don't enjoy spending time tweaking my speaker settings, but if that's what I need to do to get what I consider to be "good sound", I will put up with it. Score one for powered subs. (since you asked, my taste is generally 60's-70's folk, prog rock and classic rock at moderate volume (85-90 dB) for enjoyment, and classical at lower volume for background while working or going to sleep (but I still want it to sound clean). Not so much jazz.

@heaudio has a LOT of good info regarding the difference between getting the time delays right vs getting the phase right, and I have sooooo many questions. He seems to think you can get this right with a well implemented DBA, but I'm not sure how. If he has time to discuss it more, I'd love to know how to text him (or email, phone, whatever).

@millercarbon initially gave some very useful input, and seems to recommend Dayton(s) in a DBA, but my last round of questions scared him away and he has moved on. Nevertheless, I thank him again for all his advice.

So, after all these responses, I have a lot better understanding of the issues, but am no closer to deciding whether I should buy a Dayton and cheap passives, or buy two better quality actives and save my pennies for 2 more.  Maybe the answer is "it doesn't matter", but I really hate that answer... Thanks for hearing me out.  Peace, and enjoy the music!

@ieales Thanks for the clarification, but I think I understood you the first time.  As I understand it, "fat" means that the wavefronts from the four subs reach your ears at different times, in the case where they are not equidistant to the listener.  That is not the sound I want.  However, even if you DO correct that (either by spacing the subs the same distance from the listening position or by inserting time delays to get the same effect), the phase will still be an issue, since (as @heaudio123 noted) the phase is a function of the frequency.  Since the wavelength of a bass note varies by a factor of three in the range from 20 to 80Hz, that means (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the phase could be perfect for the listener at 20 Hz, 40Hz and 80Hz, but off by as much as 180deg for the frequencies in between.  Having said that, I don't know how AUDIBLE this is, and I'd rather not waste my discretionary spending on something that fixes one of these issues (like time delay) at the expense of the other issue (phase).  And again, thanks for chiming in; I hopefully am learning enough to be dangerous...
@heaudio123 I could imagine that may be true if the wavefront timing is dealt with, but I don’t see how an amp that adjusts all 4 subs as a single group could get the wavefront timing right if the subs weren’t  equidistant from the listener. I can see how the array would work if each sub has its own time delay setting. Am I missing something here? Thanks again!
@noble100 Thanks, Tim, for your detailed responses -- I feel like I'm getting a free education!  (and I admit, my head does hurt a little)
@ieales Thanks for the additional notes on All-Pass phase control.  I think I just need to listen to one now, and see if the theory matches reality. 


LOL - so many opinions, so little consistency!  It would be interesting to test out these hypotheses using 3 subs, at different distances from the listener, set up so 2 of the subs together have the same volume as the third one alone.  Run the same mono source to all three, and use an A/B switch to flip between the single and the pair.  Anybody want to bet on the outcome?  (hint; I don't think any 2 people on this site would agree)
Thank you all for your comments, it’s been an interesting discussion (at least for me). I think I’ve decided to go with the Dayton SA1000 and two 10” or 12” passives; any suggestions on a decent quality sub for ~$300??? I’ve heard someone on this site recommend the Dayton Audio subwoofer kits on Parts Express ($265 for the 10” Ultimax, $311 for the 12”); has anyone heard them, or anything else in this price range?