Where should I go next? Where are my weak links?

Dear Al: Thank's for the link, I already read it in the past. Ralph is one of the designers I have in high respect.

I know that only a few speaker designers made or make their designs to achieve high quality performance with out taking in count electronics/restrictions to handle it. I'm not a speaker designer but if I was one that's the way I will make my designs. Then if that design at the end needs SS electronics or tube ones this fact was only a result of the speaker self design and not because was oriented to this or that kind of electronics.

Al, for me the main differences between audio systems quality performance level are each one audio system: colorations and distortion levels and how it handle these distortions.

For almost everyone but me what we like is not the main subject when we evaluate an audio system quality level performance.
I know as I think you know too that we can like music through full colored audio systems but for me that's means almost nothing.
What have sense to me and what I already experienced is that always that I heard a " distortion free " audio system I always like it and any one like it too.

I almost always like it my system even when was full of colorations/distortions but through the years I learn and understand the specific weight that have those distortions/colorations in any quality level system performance so I worked about and I'm still working to achieve that elusive target " distortion free " system.

Each time distortions goes lower each time the system let me hear more music more " what's in the recording " and higher enjoyment.
I learned to have not my ears equalized to my system but to be aware on different level of distotions ( different kind. ) and not only in my system but in other audio systems.

Obviously is not enough to have a " distortion free " system but a well designed one. A well designed one/distortion free system IMHO always will sounds great and likes any one and not depend what we like or which one are our priorities.
If that well designed and distortion free system does not like us could be not because the system but because that's what is in the recordings.

IMHO a well designed and distortion free system is always faithful to the recording.

I don't care about each one subjectivity because audio subjectivity is always the " easy " way to finish a dialogue like this one when arguments from one side " disappear ".

What kind of subjectivity am I talking about?, something like this one:

+++++ " Any audiophile will agree that the most valuable thing they have with respect to their audio system is their own hearing. " ++++++
or what you already posted:

+++ W if you move that's what has importance " +++

or what other people post about frequently:

++++ " this is what I like... " +++++

and my main subject is not what I, you are any one else likes but what's wrong or not.

The speaker/amplifier electrical impedance match is only one of the critical issues why we can't achieve a " near perfect " quality performance in our each one audio systems.
Colorations and distortions means differences in frequency response, noise level and any kind of deviations for neutrality, means differences on tonal balance and means non-accurate system response.

Why almost all of us take care on room/system interaction, why we take care on room contioning?, certainly to achieve near neutral performance with a better tonal balance and more accurate performance.

If we analize the relationship between the different links in the audio system chain we can see that are at least two critical relationships that almost no one cares about:
phonolinestage output impedance and amplifier output impedance.
We all care about almost all other link's relationship ( matchin in between. ): cartridges and Suts, cartridges and phono stages, cartridge and tonearms, cables and length of those cables, etc, etc.
Well electrical impedance match between speakers and amplifiers has ( at least ) IMHO a critical importance that if we don't care about we can't achieve a better quality perfromance level and not only this but we can't know for sure which one is the " true " quality performance level of each one audio system.

For me the name of the game in our high end audio is: accuracy and neutrality that means: low colorations and low distortions.

Another example on how achieve a lowest distortions in almost any audio system is the topic that Learsfool " touch it ": subwoofers, I agree with him that acoustic music other than organs perhaps does not needs a sub but we have to think in what we heard through each one system where we listen trhough speakers that always have compromises and one of these compromise is the IMD that the speaker drivers generate.
IMHO, almost any audio system benefits and improves its quality level perfromance when the main speakers goes lower in its IMD value/response.
This lower speaker IMD is something that even a " deaf " man could hear, I'm not talking here about " numbers " but a simple fact: lower speaker IMD.

Here we can read something about:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Anyway, I know that my overall targets are different from other people ones but my best hope is that sooner or later you and other people take concience and action on what you and me are talking through our posts in this thread.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Iramirez: My first move in your system can be with the Manley amplifiers that can't handle accuretely the electrical impedance curve showed by the Zu speakers due the very high output impedance value on the Manley's that is over 2.0 ohms!!!. IMHO, terrible to handle those speakers.

What the Manley can shows about is mainly very high colorations due to that high output impedance. I know that you like it but this is not the issue the subject is how to improve/weakest link and the Manleys is a good audio system link to start.

You need as all of us amplifiers that can handle with accuracy and low distortions our speakers that in many of our systems are full of colorations/distortions. Yes, many of us like those distortions but the subject is not what we like but what is wrong or not and IMHO those Manle's are " wrong ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Charles1dad: +++++ " Ivan I know that Raulirugas means well but if you like the sound of your system that`s 'all' that matters. This talk about relying on measurements and liking 'plesant colorations' is the path to frustration, just trust your ears and you`ll be better off. I `ve heard too many components that are said to be 'accurate'(usally solid state) and measure great and sound nothing like music(my 2 cents worth)I hear at live unamplified events.

My advice is go with your gut reaction and emotional response to what you hear.It it moves you then you`ll know it`s right. " +++++

good that you know exactly what means to match at electrical level speakers with amplifiers that btw is something like to match the cartridge impedance with the phono stage load impedance with that cartridge or like to match a cartridge with a tonearm.

In all these examples that " match " is critical to achieve " near perfect " quality sound reproduction ( between other things. ).

I said in my post that it does not matters what we like but what is wrong or what is right.

Many people as you do not like accurate audio systems nad the main reason why don't like it is because for to many years we are accustom/biased to hear our systems full of colorations and distortions then when some of those colorations/distortions gone we don't accept it. Our brain is already equalized to those colorations and distortions and can't switch in automatic to a more accurate sound.
The music has accuracy and when it did not we can hear it at once. Accuracy/neutrality IMHO is a must to have in any audio system .

That you, Iramirez and other people like distortions/colorations we are accustom to does not means is right.
I like and try to grow up and IMHO I grew up and still do thank's that I always question not only my self and what I have but what the AHEE put on my head in the last 30 years.

Years ago I was thinking exactly like you and like many other persons but thank's to my high ignorance level and step by step I learned in this and other audio subjects.

As you I attend ( at least one day every week. ) to listen live unamplified music and sometimes amplified too.

The electrical impedance mistmatch between speakers/amplifiers is not only " measurements " but a Law's physics Ohm's Law in specific.

You, me or any other person can't argue nothing and I mean nothing against the Ohm's Law. The subject is , again, what we like it or not but that if we don't care about the Ohm's Law what we are hearing is only a cartridge/source signal with a heavy way heavy make up that nevr will tell us ( trough the audio system ) what is in the recording.
Of course that if you don't care what is in the recording then you can follow " enjoying " the full colorations and distortions that you as Iramirez are enjoying right now.

+++++ " It it moves you then you`ll know it`s right. " ++++

weel, music has the power to move almost any one even through a Walkman, again this is not the subject.

Iramirez: http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurements

here you can take a look the electrical impedance curve on your speakers where you can see that that speaker impedance electrical behavior is not flat but a complex curve ( up and down over the frequency range. ) even more complex that what we can see.
Well, that is what the amplifier " see " and what we need is flat frequency response with out different output levels through the frequency range.
To achieve a evenly output level and due to that Ohm's Law the amplifier must have a very low output impedance ( around 0.1 ohm. ). When the amplifier output impedance is so high like the 2.0+ ohms in your Manley's the response on output level is not evenly but wit different output level all over the frequency range and this means: heavy colored reproduction.

The Ohm's Law is more complex than this but I explain in this way trying to made it simple.

What you are hearing are not what your Zu speakers can show you on quality performance level but a colored sound due that those amplifiers can't handle it.

in that link you can understand better what I'm trying to share with you and where you can read this:

++++ " With tube amplifiers having the usual high source impedance, the disparity between the impedance in the mid-treble and that above 10kHz will shelve the top octave down. Similarly, the reduced impedance in the lower midrange compared with that in the bass and treble will suppress that region somewhat when the Essence is driven by a tube amplifier. " +++++++

IMHO as our each one ignorance level goes down as better we can enjoy and hear what is in the recording.

Yes, exist some audio items that are accurate/neutral and sounds " terrible " but does not sound " terrible " because are accurate/neutral but because are not well designed, that's all.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Almarg: IMHO there are many scenarios/stages between amplifier/speaker's impedance mistmatch.

The " big " trouble in the Iramirez system is that the Manley's are not only a wrong match for those speakers but a " dratical wrong " amplifier with because that so higher than usual output impedance: 2.0+ ohms when there are tube amplifiers with a lowe output impedance around 0.5-0.8 ohms where is less " dramatic ".

As I said this match on amplifier/speaker is like the tonearm and cartridge one or cartridge impedance and phono stage lod impedance.

Why in the other two cases we " worry " about and try almost always to have the best match we can and with speaker/amplifiers we don't care at all?, other than ignorance on the subject makes no sense to me.

Of course mine is only an opinion and the must important one is the Iramirez and yours.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Iramirez: Just imagine a well designed amp that you like its quality performance level and that at the same time was/is accurate/neutral to help listen what is in the recording with low low colorations and distortions.

I think that till you or any one else can have that experiences you or any one else can't even imagine or dream the pleasure and enjoy level all we can achieve through an audio system hering music.

My take is that is better try ( at least try. ) to grow up than stay in the deep " hole " majority of us are for so many years.

I'm only saying: try, learn and move on.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Al: I'm not talking about overall speaker behavior but about a mistmatch between the Manley and the Zu due to the Manley " behavior " that due to the amplifier characteristics in true works more like an equalizer with gain that as an amplifier with the right performance to handle the Zu speakers this is the main subject.

++++ " would mean that its design may anticipate and compensate for those impedance interactions " ++++

I hope not because that means more signal manipulation that means signal further degradation.

Now, I can't see clear which your point. Are you trying to say that the Manley is a right amp for those speakers? or are you trying to diminish the impedance mistmatch between Manley and Zu? which your point?

As I posted : why any one of us could try to diminsh or ignore the critical importance that have a matching or un-matching amplifier/speaker combination on system quality level performance when any one of us take care matching cartridge impedance with phono load impedance or tonearm/cartridge match combination to achieve better quality performance level?

which the difference when maybe the speaker/amplifier impedance matching can be more critical and sensitive than the others?, makes no sense to me.

Trying to match electrical impedances between any other audio links but the amplifier/speakers always is important an almost all of us take care about: I repeat, which the difference with the amplifier/speaker impedanmce matching? why almost all do not care about? which is the explanation behind this audiophile behavior other than ignorance?

Which your take ?, I ask you because you know what we are talking about and I can't see you agree with that critical Ohm's Law importance. Again: why diminish it?

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Charles1dad: As any one I'm ignorant in several audio subjects. I don't diminish any one of you, I'm only telling why we are almost anal when matching other two audio links but amplifier to speakers: makes no sense tome, makes sense to you?

A well designed accurate and neutral audio item always is pleaseant when is surrounded of similar audio items/links but when is surrounded of other non-accurate/non-neutral and colored audio links we tend to " fix " the culprit to that well designed accurate and neutral item that because of these characteristics shows and showed several faults elsewhere in the audio system that before its integration were hidden for a more colored and distorted audio item.

I'm not talking of amps only, I'm talking of an audio system as a whole entity where a single " sick " link make ill all the audio chain.

We can't wait that in a colored and distorted audio system the " introduction " of one accurate and neutral link can cure/heal that system: NO, that one link is only the begin is only the first step to improve it and we have to " walk " more than one step to achieve that pleaseant, accurate, non-distorted and neutral system quality performance level.

Working on each audio link looking to lower and put at minimum all kind of distortions is the key to " perfection " on quality system performance level where any one will like and love the sounds comme out from that " perfect " audio system.

As I said: in this subject what you, me or any one likes is not important is not the subject but what is wrong or what is right.
I prefer a pleaseant system performance that's accurate, non-distorted and neutral over other that it is: don't you think?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.