Where is the significant point of diminishing returns on hi-end turntable?


For those that don’t know me I am newish to this game. Yes, I believe this chase for perfection in sound reproduction is a game. There are endless variables affecting the sound of every system and 100x that in opinions on each of these variables. I love cool $hit as much as the next guy but I am looking for an analog rig and I keep getting drawn into the seemingly endless "what about this option that costs tons more?". I started with a $6 to $10K budget and now I am considering a $25K setup (Table, cart and phono stage) after talking to a local retailer. I will be blunt, I want to be that guy in the Memorex ad from the 80’s that is getting blown away by his system (my impression is he is overwhelmed by the amazing sound coming from that speaker not the volume). Now that I have acquired some pretty descent stuff I am spending 15 plus hours each week listening and really enjoying this hobby. I don’t want to have any regrets and just be marginally satisfied with my setup but where do I draw the line? Back to my initial question; what is a reasonable amount to spend on an analog setup to achieve the best bang for the buck? I may be somewhat unique in that I don’t want to constantly be upgrading my equipment, I just want to buy great products the first time that are very satisfying and spend hours listening to great music. I don’t want to be the guy always chasing the next great thing.
128x128mmporsche

Showing 6 responses by rauliruegas

Dear @mmporsche : """ I appreciate the advice and I don’t want some high maintenance system. My objective is high quality sound with a reasonable amount of fuss/work. ...... I am more the set it and forget it. I will spend the time and learn how to set it up once properly and make some minor tweaks but that is it. """

""" I just want to buy great products the first time that are very satisfying and spend hours listening to great music. """


Analog is not " set it and forget it ", could be but depend on other personal factors.

""".... very satisfying ? """

if that is what you are looking for then may I ask you: which is your level of analog satyisfying and how do you know it’s exactly that?

I think that first you have to fix your knowed personal premises to achieve it but even that money is no object ( and this fact can only help to start and for up-grades. ) I thing your overall analog knowledge ignorance level is not adequated for what you posted in both threads. I know that because IMHO you are not asking the rigth questions.

I see you as a " child " that needs and like to buy a new toy and that’s excited to do it and react emotionally to many of the gentlemans advices and after that you have more doubts than certainty of which toys fill your needs.

My take is that you think you know your needs but in reality you don’t. You are a wise man but true analog high end is a new " land " for you. You need to learn before pull the trigger.

You have to start asking you: step by step which is the path/road ( detaliled one. ) where the cartridge delicate and way sensitive electrical music information must pass till arrives your ears and where at each one of those single steps the signal is degraded ( always is. ) and the level of degradation is not the same.

You have to learn where the signal suffer more degradation to take care scrupulously on those single links with higher degradation levels in order to achieve audio system degradation at minimum. So, analog rig is only part of that audio system. Important? yes but analog rig is not an island surrounded by nothing but for a real " furious sea " where degradation means: distortions of every type and at the ends means that as higher distortions comes as less MUSIC we listen.

You can pull the trigger rigth now ( is your money. ) but if I was you: learning experiences are more important because you are not " dying " now.

Wise money investment is the key not the money. Money is always important but more important is if you know for sure how and why spend it. Same like when you choose a Porsche over a Ferrari where you don’t only buy a Porsche but a precise Porsche model. Why is that?


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.








Dear @mmporsche : """ I usually leave that to the experts and I focus on the driving-the part I enjoy the most. I believe the same is true with setting up a turntable. I can understand how to do everything but that doesn’t mean I am going to do it. I am seeking out the local experts and will have them setup my table. If I need to adjust something than I will certainly have the knowledge and tools. """

I don’t think that you just " left "/come down from your family car and suddenly gone inside a car race driving in a race car.
No one borns with that knowledge level, always exist a learning curve when we go inside a " new territory " and high-end is a new territory for you.

Every single of your posts reflects that fact: a new territory where you amost know nothing even that you said: " how to do everything ".
One thing is what we can think and what we really know about.

What are you trying to explain all of us with your posts? that you are already at the top or nearest on that learning curve/ladder?

IMHO and with all respect to you the only truly wise action you took it was to ask in this forum, even that your questions were not the rigth ones.

How do you know which or where are those experts you are talking about and where you will leave everything in their hands?


""" experts and will have them setup my table. """

I already posted here: table set up is only a link on the overall audio chain.

I don’t know how will you know that not only the table set up but the audio system is running at least at average quality level for the items you own. ?. Sorry for my ignorance level but could be that I’m missing many things with your approach and through your posts.


""" it appears that a good number of you seem to enjoy working on your setup more than listening to music ... """

maybe and that’s part of the learning curve that seems to me you think already passed for. Today I just listening at 98% of my time.
 Do you think that K.Roseberg or N.Lauda never in true passed for that learning curve? or maybe you can live with " mediocrity/average " results. Is’t fine with you?, if yes then you don't need a diferent analog rig that the one you own.

Example: I'm sure that no one buy a Formula One car only to see it in the garage and switch on/off to " listen " the kind of " noise " motor. 

Anyway, I would like to know and could be interesting for you to share:  which is your reference to be sure the expert table set up is " perfect "/well done ?

Btw, I think that in audio the best path to go/start is to have an open mind, always.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.






Dear @mmporsche : I think that you are refering to some posts as mine. Well, beleibe it or not I’m not against you but in favor of you trying to help what because your posts you are not aware yet in the high-end land ( no, it’s not rocket science. ).

Till now you decided not to give any single answer to my very precise questions to you and I’m not really questioning you but trying to help you. Whom am I to questioning you or any one else?

The only actuion I can read where you took in count my advice was the Galibier one.

My reference is always live music in real " day by day " venues. I listened music directly inside a recording studio/session for 3-4 times.

Till today I never bougth any single audio item through an audio shows like the RMAF or CES and other shows of that type other than LPs and I attende several times.

First than all I’m a music lover and second an audiophile.

"""" I enjoy all genres of music as long as it is quality music and most importantly was recorded well. I have a keen ear for quality growing up in the studio... """

I enjoy music that was not recorded very well but that is MUSIC that can " move " me in any way and if it’s well recorded the better.

I don’t have a keen ear trainend in the studio ( I don’t need it. ) but I can go to your place ( for the first time or any other single gentleman place. ) and tell you what’s wrong with your overall set up is any. Next, a simple question:

Do you know why can I do that and tell us?


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Btw, many times my posts are not even close to what the thread OP or other gentlemans " like " to hear. Sometimes my posts akes " happy " to any one but in all cases I have only one attitude: help and share my experiences.

My opinion has the same " weigth " that any other person including yours and obviously that can be wrong.


Dear @sbank : You are rigth, LIVE MUSIC must or should be the REFERENCE and nothing else.
 For me that's means that we must to stay in " constant " touch with as each one time could permit it.

All other kind of music experiences can enrich each one audio system experiences and each one control over that audio system.

Every audio system ( " poor " one or extremely expensive ones. ) can make " sound " but only  a few can make MUSIC: can really put us nearest to the MUSIC and how all human beens are " involved " by that MUSIC. Digital and Analog can make MUSIC but that does not depends on the media each one we use but depends on each one of us knowledge level and skills.

You, @rushton , @mmporsche , me and any one else are where we are not because the audio system it self but because each one of us skills and knowledge levels to fullfil each one targets. I can say I'm almost " there " as many of you.
Many of our audio systems only makes sound not MUSIC and we need to learn how to achieve this last target.

@rushton did not arrives where he is with the today system, he learned and I'm sure that he still do it even today. I know I'm doing as you Spencer.

Normally is the audio system whom has the overall control over us and only when we start to change that fact to be we the ones that have the control is when the system start to make MUSIC.

Audio life is an audio life full of frustrations till we " arrive ".

I don't know what @mmporsche could think when through the time he suddenly listen other person home audio system where he takes in count it performs really better than his 80-90K+ home system but where those experiences came from a humble 30K system!!!

I already has experiences listening 200-350K systems where what I listened was only sound. Those audio systems are the ones that has the CONTROL not the owners of it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Dear @mmporsche : Lenco, good. Do you already decided the cartridge/tonearm combination and the rigth phono stage for your speakers/room can really " dance "?

regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear @garretc: Agree, speakers/room are perhaps the most important link in an audio system along the source. Now, not all kind of electronics can make an Alexandria/room can really " dance ", we have to take care here too.

@shadorne pointed out that the speakers choosed by @mmporsche can be driven by " a mere 2 watts ": so what?, that's does not means that the Voxativ are the best out there.

In the high end audio world the audio link where we can find more manufacturers and models is precisely on: speakers, because its critical importance as you said and because exist no perfect speakers. Even inside same speaker manufature there are diferent speaker " flavors ".

Perhaps and is only  my opinion the hardest audio link to choose is the " rigth " speakers  and for mmporsche was the easy link.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.