Yeah really, a good subwoofer/speaker should have no problem playing "accurately"(relative term) up to 80hz! I know I've read and heard many many many times where reviewers talked about the sub they were discussing not being able to play as well up to 80 hz! THIS IS MOSTLY NOT AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF WHAT'S REALITY for many situations! Many subs do just fine, even superb at being played hard up to 80 hz and beyond! There becomes problems with dirrectionality and lack of coherence with the main speakers they're crossing over too, as well as poor sub placment in the room, and improper level matching and such at those frequencies however!...Again, user error!
I will conceed that MANY, YES MANY subs are built to be able to take and playback the much more demanding(less accurate musically i'll conceed) dynamic and synthetic sound from movie soundtracks! This becomes a power handling issue. Thus, they are built with a lower "Q factor", or tightness paramater compared to many music woofers built into many speakers!!!...yes! I know that.
Still, there are NUMBEROUS SUBS THAT NOT ONLY HAVE EXCELLENT EXTENSION, BUT ARE VERY TIGHT(high "Q") and accurate as well! Many THX sub's are such, like M&K's superb MX200/350/5000, etc. Paradigms Servo 15 and PS1000(budget) are very tight and extended!! Infact, for the money, you CANNOT BEAT THE SERVO 15 FOR EITHER MOVIES OR MUSICAL ACCURACY AND IMPACT/EXTENSION FOR THE MONEY, PERIOD! I've found no better sub at this price EVER!!! The higher-end Velodynes are ok. But an other turely dynamite all around woofer is the Earthquake...yes! But there are many others out there at different price ranges and budgets, that have no problem(if set up correctly, which is the downfall of most, conceeded).
The reality, regardless, is that, even with some SLIGHT compromises in some "looser" designed subs, FOR MOVIES AT LEAST, the compromises and trade-off's out-weigh the disadvatages of a potentially truely "accurate" bass note at and around the 80hz range! I mean you can still get truely superb results sonically with a lot of care taken. And I think the advantages out-weigh the con's!
Still, that said, you can negate any real aregument in the debate of letting your more "likely" musically accurate bass woofers in your mains vs. crossing down to a woofer in the HIGHLY DEMANDING BASS reigion for HT, by simply getting one of the better subs!
Think about it..if you were building a subwoofer with a built in powered driver, there should be no reason to think you couldn't design a woofer with better control and accuracy than what an equivalent sized woofer in your speakers offered! This is handled much more commonly by powered full range speaker designs, like those offered by Dunlavy, Infinity, NHT, Paradigm, Avantgarde, Phase Tech, Snell, Linn, Klipsch, JBL, and many others! The woofers in those speakers in mention, are very very dynamic, fast, coherent, and well integrated!..there's no reason to think it's not possible to properly set up an external woofer to do the exact same job, with the same results with proper care and know-how!!
Still, again, for what movies are demanding dynamically, even if you are chosing a less than optimally accurate subwoofer design for your system, crossing over the work to the sub still outweighs any dissadvantage you'll likely need to consider for movies!
Now if you like to listen to your much less dynamically demanding music material "full range" through your speakers, then you can always drop the sub, and have no worries! But for what you need for "thill factor", "impact", authority, dynamics, etc from a movie soundtrack, you simply are making a major mistake by not allowing that all to play properly through your system, by not letting the powered sub handle the dirty, and highly demanding bass chores!!...and that includes up to 80hz I'm affraid.
But, if you are affraid, then just go buy one of the better more accurate subs (paradigm PS1000,Servo 15, M&K MX series, Thiel's expensive sub, Velodyne's HGS(OK), Earthquake Supernova's(superb all around), etc, and you'll have no problems if you set up up right!!!!
I must mention something that I've known for years however regarding bass and overall potential "dynamic transparancy" from a speaker system! That being that passive design speakers and external (even high powered) amp set up's really can't reproduce an accurate(again, relative term...as nothings perfect) and "totally dynamically transparent" pressentation!..especially in the bass!!!
I've known for years, as do many speaker makers, that horns, and active drivers do a much better job of reproducting fundamentals closer to "true dynamic transparancy" with all likely sonic info that's likely to pass through the system! True dynamic control, and thus "accurate playback" of info, from say the bass region, requires as much power and as high of a damping factor as possible! Given most passive speaker systems inability to adequately provide control over the rather inadequately "underdamped" passive crossover network/driver configurations, the lister, ESPECIALLY WITH "UNATURAL" SOUND EFFECT RIDDLED MOVIE MIXES, has to listen to a rather less than optimally dynamic and transparent sonic pressentation, due to physical restraints of the playback system! Again, every time I hear a much more realistic and potentially accurate bass program from "active speakers", much more highly efficient speaker systems, and "active powered speakers" in general!!!! It's just the way it is.
So, for me, any time I can get an active woofer/driver in play, I try to do so if the trade-off's don't outweigh the benefits!
I think, for most peoples peice of mind, they would be better running their audiophile speakers full range for their more likely "less dynamic" music needs, and cross over to the sub to handle the "unreasonablly dynamic" digital movie information! Because inevitably, you know people are going to be facing compromises...I just think doing with I mentioned limites the compromises, and maximizes the benefits and effectiveness of the system for the needs!
It's all good though.... |
Yeah you can run into problems if you stack crossovers or interstect them. It's often best to set the crossover on the sub as high as possible if you don't have a bypass, and are using the processors internal crossover. If you like the sound you are hearing "distortion", then there you are!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Still, there are numberous articles by industry professionals that say you shouldn't do what you're doing in general. Still, tinkering and tweeking is ultimatly where it's at, as system set ups and equipment matching will have a great deal to do with all this. Still, what I find is that the single greatest areas or down falls for most is both speaker placment, seating placment, and system set up paramaters and tweeking!...not to mention other room acoustics problems. All that is followed by poor gear selection for appropriate needs being a distant last!
Good luck |
In quickly glancing through these Kgveteran/Vedric responses, I must say I more agree with Kgveteran. However, from a CRITICAL flat/even frequecy response standpoint, I understand Vedric's point of simply getting your speakers set up properly in the first place, thus assumedly eliminating much of the need EQ in the first place, possilbly ading some negatives to the sonic purity. However, in all practicallity, and since 99.999% of the people can't get their speakers set up properly from lack of knowledge(or worse, the room is too small to find adequate placement for flat response) makes Kgveteran's standpoint more valid and practical motly! It's easier, simply refering to balancing the speakers frequency response-wise, to EQ one sub, and not have to worry as much about flat response from all your satalites/speakers!...thus allowing you to balance the bass bellow 80hz out with placement and EQ alone! Still, you'll need to focus on speaker placment, but it give you much more options this way! Case in point:
You've got a small room acoustically, like most, and placing full range speakers in a small to medium room,un-EQ'd, will make for boomy, bloated, one note, lack of pitch and dynamic range sounding bass every time inthese rooms!...unless you introduce unpractical(often) placment options out in the middle of that small room, and/or EQ'ing extensively for the seating possitions! This is a major common problem in most all small/medium acoustic spaces! Now, in Vedcric's deffense, LARGE ROOMS (like, yes, 20x30x9 or better) you can get away with more flexibilt of placement usin full range speakers even!!! However most people don't have such luxury.
Case in point, my last custom theater room I set up for a client, involved a room that was 17(21 at some points)x14.5x9. I was using all 2 way sealed DiApplito HT monitors for mains/center, plus smaller Bipoles and a sub rounding the 5.1 system out. THERE WERE SOOOOOOO many room mode challenges in that smallish room, that I ended up having to EQ the whole system out(this is better in a digital system using internal Digital EQ's if you can mind you, unless you spend big bucks on many higher expense EQ's!!!, like Rives EQ), since the seating options where limited in this case, not to mention speaker placement limitations.
So, responding to Vedric's assumption regarding peoples need to simply set the speakers up right in the first place, I find it doesn't MOSTLY end up being an option for most, for many reasons!!! In this case, being able to set speakers up closer to walls/boundaries, in cabinets, near big TV's, whatever, becomes much more practical when setting speakers to only play above 80hz or so, and EQing out a single(or better, multiple subs) instead!!!!
Case in point again: If anyone went to this past year's Hifi expo in San Francisco, There were at least 6 or more rooms in the hotel that were using Rives Audio's Parametric EQ in them! The sound difference was tremendous! Granted, this EQ cost's thousands for a high end system, but you need to do something to get the modes down in these smaller acoustic spaces, like THE VAST MAJORITY of smaller domestic rooms we mostly see consumers having to use at home!!!
In large acoustic spaces like commercial theaters, placment isn't a problem at all!...as you can put speakers most anywhere and mostly be garanted flat response because of the tight modal distribution in such large spaces...you don't have that luxury in small house rooms, which is what we mostly live in. Thus, in small rooms, speaker placement and, often, EQing become necessary for optimal sound!
Now, back to the issue regarding bass distribution for efficiency, coherency, dynamic potential, speed, and transparncy, and practicality from an "option" standpoint fo distribution, there are other considerations here.
Second, regarding Vedric's statement that your WASTING USEFUL BASS OUTPUT FROM YOUR OTHERWISE CAPABLE FULL RANGE SPEAKERS by setting 80hz cross for your speakers, this doesn't work mostly!!! AGain, THX figured this out because passive speakers can't properly deal with the 5-10x's as demanding bass mixed into these soundracks!(music is much less dynamic mostly, as music doensn't have explosions mixed in)
I've seen/heared it time and time and time again!...people using their full range speakers (passive types going through a rather inefficient passive crossover built in) full range for movies! Blown woofers and fried tweeters, distorted mushed out bass from the speakers, and generally muddy and non-dynamic inpactfull bass is largely the results this gets!...sorry to say, but I've worked in 2 large audio chain stores, and 4 high end audio stores over the last 10 years now, and unless your using speakers with large powered subs built in or MARGINALLY high efficiency Klipsch type horn speakers, playing full range through all your tower speakers for movies SUCKS!!! You think you're wasting the bass potential by playing them as "small", but your not! And, yes, all the bass is being mixed down into your sub when you do this, but it's still much better do to the limitation of your speakers!
I've played full range dynamic movies, at all volume levels and intensities, with evey kind of speaker you can immagine! And, by far, taking the rather inefficient bass load of of these passive speaker set-up's is the way to go for sure! If you're worried about lossing bass in teh room, get MORE ACTIVE SUBS!!!! Those passive, even full range speakers need to only be trying to reproduce the rather EASY 80hz and above info dynamically!...YES!
The reason people get distortion and blown speakrs running these action movies on DVD through their towers full range is largely do to a poor distribution of power through their passively crossed over speaker designs, and in-efficient amps in their recievers and underpowered poweramps! So, from a less dynamically demanding bass standpoint when playing most music through your main speakers full range, this problem isn't as bad for most people. yes, you can get fast, cohrerent, dynamic enough sounding bass from full range speakers for this application, I conceed for the most part. But, play techno, hard rock, rap, heavy R&B/Hip-hop, whatever through this same set up and listen to your speakers bass go all to hell!..they'll scream for relief and more power! In short, you'll either distort your woofers, get washed out mush, or hear slopy washed out bass! My worst fear is blowing drivers! If you don't think so, just put on some of this heavy techno, or rap and hear your systems inefficiency! If you've got powered speakers with big woofers, or much more efficient horn speakers(even pro audio types), this is much less of an issue. Still, for all practicality, if you can get a crossover at 80hz between a speaker and passive sub, the systems dynamic potential will come alive with that effectively "bi-amped" set up!!!(i.e, sub's amp and main amp combined).
Yes, I find that only in the speakers that are using active bass woofers of large enough size, can you get USEFUL bass that's controled enough not to blow woofers for DD/DTS movies! ACtually, I've heard Linn's active speakrs played full range for movies on occasions. And, even though the sound was more dynamic by far than any other passive speakers(mostly home audio) sounded full range, the bass was still distoring quite a bit when pushed at THX level! Definitely sounded better crossed over to a larger powered 1000 watt sub!(infact, commercial set up's use 1000 watt/ch amps to drive the bass woofers for a reason1!!!...just like Russ Herschelmann of HT/STereophile/AVInteriors uses in all his full blow theaters!).
It all comes down to efficiency, flexibility, control, dynamics, and accuracy of sound when it comes to bass distribution. I've played around with all the processors(in board and out) that offer flexibility from 20hz to 250hz for crossover setting for HT purposes. And, I like the 80hz setting, because I know how it works and how to work with it! I'm not saying you can't get good results by not using this, but it all becomes a trade-off. And for movies, the trade-off of potential dynamics and efficiency is not one that should be given up!...at any volume level!. I say this, and I'm a two channel audio guy as well.
I've argued with many audiophile who use their large Dunlavy's, Wilson's, JM Utopia's Even Avantgards or whatever, and even less expensive PSB's, NHT's, B&w's, whatever, about running full range for HT! I've tried all those scenarios, with all kinds of amps and set-up's. Infact, if you call all the high end speaker makers and tell em you're going to run HT at anywhere near THX levels through THEIR SPEAKERS, they'll tell ya you might consider a powered sub and the "SMALL" SETTING ON YOUR PRE PRO! Justr Ask Thiel, Wilson, Martin logan, B&W, whoever! I know, I've not only sold all these people products, but I've talked with their people extensively!
Now, there are those companies who set up speakers to be played full range for movies, and I think Def Tech and the powered NHT's and such are two of them! Yes, Klipsch makes some very large passive horn speakers that will do much better here than most standard non-powered passives full range for movies. But The likes of the active woofered speakers like Def Tech's and NHT VT3 system have advantages of having active woofers on their large bass drivers! IN these cases, bass distribution from an efficiency stand point becomes less of an issue. I've even owned the INfinity Prelude composition and MTS full range ACTIVE-woofered speakers, and so I know this is the case, including
Def TEch BP2000's! So, I know what I'm talking here. In large rooms, those powered speakers can handle the bass for sure!..and they do it well. This isn't the case with large passive audiphile designs for the most. You NEED A POWERED SUB!..OR MORE!!!
So, again, M&K whith their powered sub/sat systems are doing it righ for movies in homes! I like their stuff as well. You can use, yes, your audiphile speakers and a sub, but you gotta cross em over at 80 and set up right! Large rooms get more freedom of speaker placement, for that option. For most people however, I'd stick with running full range for passive music, and crossover for rock/HT dubites every time! Yes, higherend horn speakers with active woofers like AVantgard's can play full range if need be for movies, but most other high ender's can't handle the truth for movies!
It's all good. But THX didn't spend a small fortune trying to sort all this out for nothing! Many audiophile think their old 2 channel full range stereo approach to DD/DTS/THX movies can be adressed by thier outdated approach/set-up's! But this isn't the case. Just go slap in "The Hulk" on DVD and play it about 5 db bellow THX level, try full range through your speakers vs. "small" with a powered sub(s), and see what your ears/speakers think??? If you havn't blown your speakers up playing em full range, and you like the sound, then there you are!....
I think you'll rethink after you've done it just once.
Have fun |
In responding to "john Z's" comments regarding Polks info, and the general opinion on running "line level" vs. "speaker level" needs some more explanation I think, as it's a very important consideration.
First, I think that connecting your active sub via "speaker level connection" in a purely music system(probably mostly 2 channel), can often work quite well and, I think, is often a viable consideration for best results! You can often avoid some of the "POTENTIAL" trouble situations you may encounter this way, some of which where discussed previously by John Z. I ran my high end 2 channel monitor set up that way for a very long time, using my SF Minima Amators driven full range (only play down to about 45 hz+/-) with a 2 channel set up, while using a powered sub connected "speaker level", thus using the subs own internal cross over to blend the sat' with the sub....and the results were tremendous for my AVERAGE music listening needs! The blend sounded excellent, no phase issues, or weird anomolies, etc.
The only down side to that system set up, was that very dynamically challenging music material, like Techno, rap(if you listen), heavy percussion, some new-world, hard rock, giant scale orchestral, etc, will distort the woofers in your small speakers this way!...as the mains are being driven full range, and most can't handle(as I mentioned in all the other posts I had) truely deep demanding bass info so well!(refering to even most full range passive speaker monitors). REally, ALL THE DEEP BASS INFO needs to be handled by the POWERED BASS WOOFER! That's been my extensive experience anyway. Heck, even the older NHT VT2 towerers, bigger Klipsch, and higher end Dunlavy's that were known for excellent bass on their own can't handle some stuff, MOST ESPECIALLY DD/DTS movie stuff on their own!...you gottta get the powered subs involved somehow.
Anyway, without going "there" to much, back to my point...
..So really, the "speaker level connection" to your powered sub, letting the mains run full range, and crossing over the sub internally can often work in many situations that some might encounter. STILL, seing that were talking about most people here who are using 5.1/7.1 surround sound systems, involving "summing the bass" into the sub(for one issue), and/or letting the mains handle the bass, and or with the sub, this "passive speaker connnection" posses some problems.
For instance, when you're "summing your 5.1(or better) bass info, in one case, into your "main L/R speakers", and connecting a sub via "speaker level" (connected to your main speakers, or amp's binding posts), thus making the sub play the same bass info that's being mixed into your main L/R's, you're making your mains play FULL RANGE BASS INFO which they really can't properly handle!..even if the powered sub is assisting with the demanding bass dubties for DD/DTS movie applications! Which I stated earlier, becomes a much more appropriately apt job for the POWERED SUB WOOFER! So, in this situation, the mains are really straining(also straining most peoples amps, especially receiver's amp sections, causing dynamic lose throughout the system) trying to reproduce very demanding bass info, not to mention distorting! So in this set up, where the mains are driving full range "in paralell" with the powered sub(even though crossed over in the sub), you will encounter rather slow, muddy, mushy, distorted, less dynamic, unrefined, sloppy, and just plain "Flatt sounding" bass response from your other wise "over taxed" bass woofers in your main speakers most often!(this would be "less worse" with monster main speakers with high efficiency and large large woofers built in however). In most peoples standard audiophile speaker rigs, again, taking the more demanding and challenging bass info OFF OF YOUR MAIN SPEAKERS has far too many benefits to your entire system!...not just sonically from your mains, but also dyanamically freeing up your main multi channel amp to more aptly reproduce what it does best, and that's reproduce less taxing upper bass on up!!!
Case in point, I can remember running many many 5.1 systems with the mains being run "full range" (sub via line level filling in the bottom), letting a receiver handle the amplification for the mains. with some of the more demanding bass soundtracs from some of thes movies out there, as well as "strong driving bass heavy music", like techno, the receivers amps will not only sound "flat" and "strained" throughout the system, but will get so hot and overworked that you can "shut down the system" or, at the very least have heavily compressed dynamics from the speakers! In this case, if you must run your mains "full range", you have to AT THE VERY LEAST run separates! Receivers simply can't handle this so well in general!..even the big flag ships! I know, I've experimented with the Big Denon's, Yamaha's, even Marantz's, etc(Actually, the B&K handled this the best).
So, back on track here...for PROPER DYNAMIC DISTRIBUTION, dynamics of sound, lack of strain and distortion, and maximum efficiency, you really need to get the bass off your main speakers(and center/rear sat's), and let the bass woofer(s) handle the bass and deep bass! That means running the sub "line level", which mean through the LFE mostly!(in the case of a 5.1 or better system, using a receiver or pre/pro).
Breifly bouncing back to my point about 2 channel set up driving main speakers and a powerd sub in paralell via "speaker level" connection, again when you play demanding dynamiic music through this set up, you really can't get the dyanmic potential in this "passive system" like you can when you're either doing a filtered sub/sat set up or, better, an "active" speaker system!(having all active speakers, with active sub possibly!). So there are trade offs, and each persons needs are different. For me, I sometimes like to listen to the "harder/heavier stuff"!
But for most peoples 5.1/7.1 sytem, the best way is still going to be utilizing PROPER BASS MANAGEMENT and a powered sub(s) connected via "line level" or LFE connection! The dynanmic range potential here is not going to be bested any other way. The only exceptions to this as being the best way, is when your using much more efficient main speakers(or center/rears even) like "powered towers"(i.e, Def Tech's, etc), truely active large full range speakers(like Avlar's, maybe even ATC's, and similar), or very high senstivity large pro audio/horn speakers that play over 100db/watt sensitivity with 15" woofers! OTher than that, most people using standard home audio passive floor standing and mini monitors are getting infinitely better dynamic capabilities and range by effectively "bi-amping" their system, using a crossed over sub/sat set up!!!..that's just the way it is. THX knows this, and all the top HT guy's know this! The audiophile purists might argue against these comments, but then they most all have rather "limited dynamic", weaker sounding sytems that won't hange with the better more apt dynamic systems set up for proper HT playback! I know, I've heard hundreds, maybe even over 1000 of the systems most audiophiles have running in 2 channel over the years! They watch movies connected via analog through their 2 channel high end rigs, and they like it that way just fine! And that's great I think. But those sysetms will never match the dynamic range of a truely proper HT set up!
Peace... |
I would like to respond a bit more here. But first I want to comment to Eldartford's situation with his 1.6 Maggies. Eldartford, you NEED TO BE CROSSING THOSE MAGGIES AT 80 or so, indeed!!! Especially given the delicate nature of those speakers (I know, I've sold them on a retail level for several years!!) The 1.6's need to focus on what they do best, and that's world class clarity, transparancy, midrange, and speed, etc! Bass, most all of it, in an HT context only really works adequately with those speakers deligated to the sub! Plain and simple. If you want to have squashed dynamics with these dynamics, strainted sounding bass, and just plain dammage to your speakers with these Maggies, then just play em full range for HT and see!(I'm talking in general to the masses here.
P.s., for the record, even though I'm not a "planar" speaker fan per se, I think you can't get better sound for the money for gorgeous sound than the 1.6!...very pretty speakers sonically. They do things most others can't anywhere near the price, conceeded. I like what they DO DO WELL!..which is offer a tremendous sonic value to the audiphile...you just can't sit off axis with em, or rock hard on em...that's all..no biggie. But I like 'em!
...Anyway regarding Vedric's stance that he likes his HT system(I think I read that right) to just be his 2 channel system, playing full range, I have tons of experience with that approach. And my comments are these...
...First, my last HT set up in my home has been a 2 cnannel music/HT system for the past several years! I've not gotten around to building a dedicated full blown HT system as of yet, since I'm in the process of a new home where it will reside.
I must say that I've heard WAY WAY WAY too many 2 channel high end systems in my years, and the reality is that there are few and far between stricktly passive 2 channel systems that can really handle a full range DD/DTS signals properly!!!(I say that, assuming one's using an outboard pre/pro to process DD/DTS material, rather than stricktly going through the analog outs of a DVD player, whatever, into the analog in's of a 2 channel preamp!...as using soley the processing in one's DVD player, WILL NOT YEILD YOUR PROPER DYNAMICS AND SOUND FROM YOUR DD/DTS SOURCES!...AND MANY AUDIPHILES DON'T REALIZE THIS!..YOU GOTTA GET A PRE/PRO IN THE CHAIN!). The problems, again,(and you're fooling yourselves if you think your dynamics are "ALL THAT!", AND OR ACCEPTALBE TO PROPERLY PLAY BACK WHAT THE MIXING ENGINEERS INTENDED YOU TO HEAR!) lye in the inability of your standard passive home audiophile speakers, full range or otherwise, to handle the bass information accurately, and without dynamic compression and lack of control!..this is a MAJOR PROBLEM AND SHORTCOMMING OF STANDARD PASSIVE SPEAKER DESIGNS TODAY!
Bass, wich is the hardests thing to control in an audio system, has MAJOR HURDLES TO OVERCOME being reproduced through PASSIVE CROSSOVER NEWORKS that most speakers posses! This is where the ACTIVE POWERED SUB HAS A HUGE ADVANTAGE, IN DAMPING FACTOR, CONTROL, AND DYNAMIC OUTPUT AND RANGE! Infact, I came back from the Hi-fi expo in San Fran this past year, and must have heard several hundred 2 channel only set up's for music. These systems, playing full range dynamic music simply can't hang!..that's the way it is. Infact, achieving true dyanmic transparancy isn't really so possible from passive speakers mostly, especially in the bass reigion! This is where active speakers have a HUGE ADVANTAGE!
Now, back to bass, just take a pair of Def Tech BP2000's, or NHT VT3's, or even ultra high end Avantgard horn speakers with ACTIVE POWERED BASS WOOFERS, and play em full range for movies versus ANY...I REPEAT, ANY standard passive home audio speaker for heavy dynamic, especially HT digital material, and you tell me which one's handle the bass properly!!!!....HANDS DOWN!..IT'S NO CONTEST! The standard home audio passive full range speakers out there can't handle the dynamics and the impact, that's capable from these current DD/DTS soundtracks, nor really demanding bass heavy music material!!!!
I beg to differ (it's all good..no worries..to each his own) with Vedric's stance that he believes that running your full range 2 channel music speaker set up for HT is just as good! I don't think so... And I've done maybe a 1000 home theater set up's in my last 15 years in this business. Infact, as I mentioned, I even pressently use a 2 channel set up for my HT!
Still, let me qualify that you CAN INDEED MAKE A 2 CHANNEL SET work well for HT! Infact, I'll take a quality 2 channel (added, you need a sub to do the bass though) system over a poor sounding 5.1 or better system any day! I prefer quality over quantity for certain. However, STill, as you've gathered, I've found out a few things the hard way over the years. And that's that you need to cross over your mains in a PASSIVE SPEAKER SYSTEM(wich most of us use), and let the active woofer handle the bass! Again, the bass dynamic range, output, and extenstion can't be handled properly by most all the passive speaker designs out there, for truely effective playback. yes, the bass will play down deep full range through a speaker, but it will be squashed, softer, less impactfull, less authoritative, and DEFINITELY less dynamically transparent! THX got this part very very right, and it works! Heck, they won industry awards from the Academy and such for their work....I think they know what they're doing when it comes to movie playback, as well as mixing! But hey, that's just my opinion/experience. To each his own.
And, like I mentioned, those of you(me included)who are doing your DD/DTS HT playback through your 2 channel preamp, without a dedicated outboard DD/DTS processor of some sort, your shorting yourself sonically! The dynamics and pressence, when you bypass the outboard processing just doesn't sound good!...sorry, that's the way it is.
I use an outboard DD/dts/pro-logic pre/pro looped into my 2 channel audio pre-amp's "BYPASS"(you can use Auxilary/dirrect, whateve) for best results in my two channel system. I then cross over the speakers as "small", or "80hz", (even though I can, and have tried different settings like 65hz, 50hz, 40hz, etc, etc), and kick in the powered sub for movies and heavy dyanamic music and such! There's really no comparison. Playing movies with the speakers full range doesn't cut it for movies...not even close.
But, I'm not saying I think everyone is don't it wrong using just their mains full range. But they will blow woofers, get shorted on the dynamic potential, impact, and accuracy of the sound in general for movie playback. But that's what it is. I've done it that way myself many many times, when I had no woofer. But it's not the best way. I'm sorry.
All you out there doing a 5.1 or 7.1 need a sub or two, or more...and you need to do bass managment to get the efficiency, dynamics, and control out of your system! You're effectively biamping your entire system, maximizing each portion of your sound spectrum from a "control" and "efficiency" stand point, and getting the sound you are supposed to by-enlarge! Only full active, high efficiency systems have it better in terms of total dynamic potential. And with movies out there like "The Hulk", "LOTR's", "Star Wars", action flicks in genral, whatever, proper bass distribution and control over the bass is a must if you want to hear more of what's capable from such demanding source material!
Again, as a comparison, go see any of these block buster, highly dynamic movies in the theaters, and then listen to em at home through your full range speakrs at home without proper bass MGMT! You'll be dissapointed I think. "The Hulk" just won't sound like it did in the movie theater...and it should!
Peace |
"Distortion"...without going back through all your threads, I just wanted to mention, not for just you but all reading, that when considering crossover frequencies/placement, for best sound, and correct sound even, you must make sure that all the speakers that are crossed over are coupling WELL AT THE CROSSOVER FREQUENCY! For example, if you are crossing all your speakers over at 80hz, or some of them even, those speakers MUST BE PLAYING CLOSE TO FLAT DOWN TO 80 HZ WHERE THEY'RE SET UP AND/OR WHERE YOUR LISTENING POSSITIONS ARE CORESPONDINGLY!!!
People most often get poor results with sub/sat systems, and even systems where they're using more full range speazkers but crossing them over to a sub, by not making sure their getting adequate frequency extension and balanced response at that frequency especially!!! The often result is that "hole in the middle/bass" sound that sounds incomplete!!! This is what most audiphile's who use full range speakers complain about with sub/sat systems, or otherwise against "not" running anything other than 2 channels full range for music/movies/whatever!!!...and to that, I can understand. Another issue becomes incorrect phase between speakers and sub vs. seating possition!!! another cause of problems in crossed over or sub/sat systems. And to which, I concure, you need to consider some other steps/issues when placing a sub/sat system up properly. But then you need to set up any speaker system up for flat/even frequency response anyway!...it's just a bit different proceedure when considering separate elements, such as a sub/sat combo, or even full range/crossed over to a sub set-up.
So, I just wanted to mention, that anyone crossing over speaekrs/satalites/whatever to a powered sub/bass module, that you need to consider making sure, first that have your speakers placed in possition that allows them to extend evely all the way to the crossover setting(i.e, 80hz, whatver). In general, I find a lot of sealed box satalite speakers need to be closer to the room boundaries often (not always, as room modes are scattered, but maximize near walls) to couple strongly down to 80hz(depending on design of course...some go deeper) to sound the best at 80hz. Also, placing smaller monitors on stands no higher than 24" is often a good way to ensure good bass resonse at 80hz, considering a standard 8' ceiling. IF you have a higher 9' or better ceiling, the stand height can go up!..this has been my "general" finding with most set up's. People often have trouble getting flat frequency response from their satalites who's bass woofer(s) and port are too high off the ground(unless up higher toward ceiling placemnt)! The problem there is that at 8' ceiling heights, the 74hz mode is in the middle of the ceiling to floor distance. And the close the speakers bass woofer/port is to the middle, the weaker the bass response in that reigion, which is close to teh 80hz cross point!..in general, I just find the bass response is stronger and better coupled to the speaker/room when the bass woofer is down lower on a stand. Of course, floor standing speakrs have the other problem, especialy in smaller rooms, and that's that the bass woofer/port are closer to the floor, which reinforces the bass who's 1/4 wavelength is not greater than the distance between woofer/port and floor! So floor stander often have no problem with crossing over to a sub, because they already couple well in the bass in most all settings! Of course, there are other room dimmension and size considerations. but still, the important thing is making sure your speakers sound full and extended down(flat is also the best) to the CRITICAL CROSSOVER FREQUENCY(In most cases, 80hz w/small setting).
If people would take time to properly set up EACH SPEAKER for flat, extended, and even a fruency resonse as possible (much easier the larger the room, but more critcal in smaller troublesome rooms!), especially down at the critical crossover point, they would get TREMENDOUSLY DYNAMIC, EXTENDED, FULL, COMPLETE, FAST(MUST HAVE PROPER PHASE BOY'S N GIRLS!), HARD HITTING, AND COHERENT/ACCURATE BASS overall!...and you'd be thrilled!
Again, as I posted earlier, dynamic transparancy and weight/speed is also largely a factor of efficiency. IN this case, you get more efficiency from passive speaker systems(i.e, B&W speakers, popular Paradigm studio's, and similar, etc) when you cross over those relatively inefficient speakers(considering the passive hard to control damping-wise passive networks in those speakrs, as opposed to ACTIVE PRO MONITORS AND SUCH) to an active sub, effectively bi-amping your system for maximum dynamic potential!(even more so considering most use less able receivers to drive their speakrs...separates are usually much stronger)
But still, after maximizing that part of the set up, getting proper frequency response, phase, proper crossover blending, and attaining overall coherence from ALL YOUR SPEAKERS, including and especially in relation to your sub from all speakrss, your system will rock!!! It'll be so dynamic, coherent, weighty(make sure you have enough sub and also amp for your room/volume needs!), and powerful..not to mention seamlessly transparent!
Most people never end up with a proplery set up/calibrated system/room, and they never end up even gettiing one speaker set up correctly, let alone 6 or more!!!!
Take one speaker at a time...first the mains, then the sub to the mains, then the center to the mains/sub, then the rears to the sub!..all for perfect frequency response, coupling, and phase alignment. YOu'll then have a system so complete, hard hitting, coherent, and dynamic you won't no what do do with yourself!
Of coure, there's lots more to acoustics and set up, regarding imaging, soundstange, inteligibility, and tonality and such, among others. But you'll be WAY AHEAD OF THE GAME, if you can just get the speakers set up right, and the crossover mazimized, and the phase right!
enough said. |
Ok..not "enough said"!..my bad.
Actually, I forgot...for those consdidering larger tower speakers stuffed into smaller, even medium sized rooms, and are playing them full range, you are going to have to deal with the problems with bass boost and boom! IN general, the bass will be heavy, thick, and too dominant and boomy! In short, you'll have more bass mode problems and un-accurate bass playing those big speakers full range!..which is another benefit of crossing em over as "small"(or just using smaller speakers in smaller room environements), and concentrating on balancing a more flexibly place subwoofer(or more), and possibly "EQ'ing" out the bass just to the sub maybe!!!
Especially in the average "smallish" rooms that most people have to deal with, proper bass managment and balancing becomes even more critical for "flattest"(wich means best dynamic range between softest to hardest dynamic extremes by the way) bass response in a system. Larger rooms have more evenly distirbuted bass modes, and finding more flexible plaments for speakers becomes easier in such spaces. So you have more flexibility and likely hood of a novice getting "flatter" "more natural", and accurate "frequency response" from the system.
I just find that doing the "small" crossover setting already gives too many advantages towards getting a more accurate, dynamic, and easy to work with sound from most peoples scenarios they're likely dealing with.
Good luck |
In responding to "sean's" comments, i must say that I even used to believe what he recommends about "crossing over speakers, subwoofer's bass quality in general, and general approach to setting up a system properly...but my extensive(much more than his likely..as an edjucated guess) experience, and over 1000 systems, and 1000's of man hours under my belt, I EASILY DISAGREE!!!!!!
tHE REALITY IS, is that playing passive home audiophile speakers full range WILL GIVE YOU A WEAKER DYNAMIC PRESSENTATION, more bass mode challenges to overcome(especially in smaller/medium rooms!), distorted bass woofers(which are underdamped and controlled), lack of extension, weight, authority, impact, and effectiveness, as compared to what the mixing engineers of these block buster movies intened you to hear!!!!!..infact "sean's" recommendation wouldn't hold water for playing back through a speaker system in a large venue either!
People Like Lucas Film, THX, and other mixing authorities have set up the 80hz THX certified paramaters for a reason!.they work! I'm sure some people here(including all the "wanna-be" HT expert/2 ch audiophile "sales-people" I've worked with over the years in 6 stores) would like to think they've got it right, and the REAL AUTHORITIES/EXPERTS HAVE IT WRONG!!!!....YEAR RIGHT!
I'm not saying people can't run their speakers, or shouldn't do thier passive home audio speakers full range for HT!...you of course can. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's better for movies and heavy dyanmic dubties...IT AIN'T!!!
You'll indeed be blowing woofers, getting weaker dynamics, distorted high dynamic bass info, weaker pressence, lack of weight, extension, authority, and a generally lack luster HT playback system!!!!...that's the deal. Not to mention that most people are using very limited, and "iffy" power output from their receivers to driver many speakers full range!!!!!...they're starving their speakers for control!!!...and running into clipping problems!!!
I've seen/heard/done it all before, time and time and time again!
The list of high end and mid-fi speaker gear I've EXTENSIVELY PLAYED AROUND WITH (from my own custom/hobby experience, including 6 audio store I've worked at, and 1000's of hours of custom experience and 100's of clients)
Have included tryinig to run full range speakers of the like's of Willson WATT Puppie's, Large Dunlavy SCV's on down, All the Thiels, Martin Logan Prodigies,Monoliths, etc..., B&W's high end stuff(to 801's), NHT's gear,Mirage's, Snell's, Celestions, Audio Physics, you name it , and more!...and lots of other passive high end gear! I've also played extensively around with most mid-fi gear, including NHT, Paradigm, Def Tech's, Klipsch's, Polk's,M&K PSB's, etc!..and everything you can imagine!!!!
I've tried so many times at making these speaker offerings, using both receivers and separates, play ful range for HT!..it's not as good. YOu GOTTA GET THE SUB TO DO THE BASS!
eXCEPTIONS are, like I said, large full range speakers that have powered subs, like Def TEch's VT3's, Infinity Prelude MTS's(wich I've owned), Avantgarde horn speakers with powered subs', and similar!...also large passive horn pro audio and cinema speakers!
Now, adressing "sean's" recommendation that people simply buy an active crossover, and some passive woofers, and put it together,...well that' just not practical for 99.9% of everyone out there!!...So who's going to do that?..very few!
AS for clains that subwoofers offer generally slow, boomy, slopy, unacurate, "low-fi" bass, well that's also not so accurate!! The reality is that powered sub's do get a bad wrap becasue of larely USER ERROR!!!!!! MOST people don't ever get their sub(or speakers for that matter) set up correctly!...thus affecting the fidelity and quality of the bass they hear! They almost always have the bass turned up too high in level, placed in a bass mode in the room, in a corner, and out of "absolute phase" with their other speakers!!!...it makes getting anything more than cruddy bass mostly impossible! STILL, THE RESULTS THEY GET ARE STILL BETTER AND MORE EFFECTIVE FORE MOVIES USING THE SUB CROSSED OVER TO THE MAINS AT 80HZ!!!!
Again, movies are mixed with explosions, and gunshots, natural dissasters, monster footsteps, and other synthesized sound effects, and other very dynamic overall info! passive home audio speakers can't deal in the bass with this properly! I nkow, I've tried it all before, again and again!..year after year! That's what it is.
Also, yes, many subwoofer manufacturers out there are designing sub's with a built in low "Q factor". This makes for a more "loose", but extended, dynamic, and better power capable design for what movies are dishing out indeed. Still, using this option is still better, IMO, and THX's I think, than the alternative!...it does for movies what they need to!
Now there are companies out there which makes sub's that are more "audiophile" in their sonic qualities, and that pretty much negates all arguments once proper care is taken in setting them up for music/or HT. You can easily pic up subs that have good Q factor, as well as output capability!
M&K's larger MX series, Paradigms excellent, PS1000 to their world class Servo 15, NHT Sub 1, Veldyn'es higher end, Infinity's MTS subs's, Earthquake's dynamite MK1V 12 and 15" digital sub's, and many many others out there, provide not only tight control, but dynamite extension and output!!! Set these up correctly, for proper bass resonse and coupling with the room/speakers, proper phase and coherence with the other speakers, and you can have an extremely high end HT set up that's pretty hard to fault/surpass without getting too custom!!!!
But, to each his own. Still, give me the meat and potatoes over "pipe-dream" audiophile ambitions for proper HT set up, every time!!!!
I'll still put 99/100 people on my side in a set up comparison for a proper HT effort! I know what works...I've lived it, breathed it, and tried it all a bagillion times!!!!!!
peace |
I must admit that a LARGE PART OF MY BIAS stems from my "long running" complaint regarding the shor-comings of passive systems in closely proximating "dynamic transparency" on the whole!
I still remember the first "real" high-end system I heard many years ago. The guy who's home system it was my pleasure to have heard, had a completely active system, that just blew me away!!!!...I din't hear anything even remotely close to that system, dynamically at least, until many many years later. His system was so dynamic IT HURT!!! There was soooooooo much power and dynamic ability there, that it left everything else I heard rather flat sounding and "gut-less" by comparison over the years.
Granted, that system was also very refined and "high-end" sounding as well...not just strong and dynamic!
That said, ESPECIALLY IN REGARDS TO HOME THEATER, I have very little impatience with whimpy sounding passive speaker sysetms that can't DELIVER THE GOODS when it comes to dynamic transparancy and general power deliver/dynamics!..which I think a good HT system should do.
I think more high end speaker makers should be building, at the very least, active woofers(for the demanding bass) into their speakers!
I have talked with many high end designers, and I find that the arguments they usually offer are "cost factor", "flexibility", "tradition", "practicality"(heat build up, space issues, etc),"public acceptance"! To me, I think the only "move-up" that can be made in transducers is to do more active speaker/woofer designs!
It's this reason, not to mention that that's what the "home theater experts" in the field have found, that I think the only way to really handle bass magangement in a passive sysetem, is to enlist the help of a crossover to a powered woofer of some sort!..it's like effectively bi-amping your system, and adding and active woofer to your bass chores...it's closer to what you need for dynamic accuracy.
If people don't want to do this, no problem. But don't think you're going to blow anyone away with your action adventure demo's at home!...that's all I'm saying. Because a lot of what's "exciting" and "involving" from a movie soundtrack, is the "dynamic ability", and authority a good movie has to offer...and a sound system needs to portray that more than anything!...that and dialog inteligibilty and lack of coloration. |
Alright, in all humbleness and humility here, I'm going to pipe in here, adressing many of the views expressed here on the subject. I've built many-a-high-end custom theater over the last 10 years, and have probably hooked up more systems than 99.99% of the people ever to post on this sight. I do consider myself quite accomplished and dedicated regarding making systems sound even to world class standards, and have just plain been an HT junkie for many years, as well as high end guy all around. Needless to say, i like to think I'm somewhat the expert on making things sound better than anyone I've meet when it comes to putting systems together correctly.
Anyway, my input on the whole "which crossover setting is best" issue is that, yes unfortunately, it does often depend on a lot of varriables you have to work with!
I'll start with some considerations that are really mandatory, and which in a round about way get to the issue here none-the-less.
First, You really need enough subwoofer(s) or ACTIVE bass woofers for the room/system you're putting together! This will have a lot to do with what bass is going where, in regards to proper bass output. That being said, I find most people "under-sub" in modest sized rooms, or they have their(likely) "underpowered/undersized" sub playing higher than it comfortably can! The answer there is either to get more sub(s)(and learn how to place and set them up to be coherent and balanced in the system their in), or place the smaller sub towards/in the corner to get more boost and efficiency from it by letting the room boundaries help(considering EQ'ing in that situation is a big plus indeed!).
Now, let's say you have that issue adressed, and have enough(very necessary) sub(s) for your room, there are other concerns that are magnified by the fact that most people out there are at the very least using lower powered receivers driving passive speakers! But even when considering separates driving even larger FULL RANGE monitors in most peoples systems, still, the inefficiency in most any amp to drive most lower efficiency/sensitivity home speaker makes it even that much more critical to do some BASS MANAGEMENT AND PROPER ALLOCATION!
To simplify, I find that it becomes mostly mandatory to take the bass and dirrect it where a more capable ACTIVE SUBWOOFER(S) can better handle the very demanding bass that's recorded on these digital movies!
There are many many many people out there who are running there FULL RANGE SPEAKERS as LARGE on their pre/pro's, quite contrary to what THX dictates. Yes, it's loosened up a bit over the years, but WHAT WORKS WORKS! (See: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"). THX spent hundreds of thousands of hours finding out what works best, and there's a reason for their 80hz crossover! Even with very high sensitivity passive speakers (like horn jobbies), getting proper control over the bass driver is better handled by an ACTIVE SPEAKER!(OR WOOFER RATHER)! letting your passive monitors(no matter the size) play only a the top bass portion for speed and ease of handling by your amp/receiver/whatever, and letting the subs handle bellow 80hz, makes for a much more dynamic potential in a sound system!(note: they even use this setting in large commercial theater!). So, in short, if you do run most domestic home speakers full range passivly, and just have the sub "filling in the bottom octave", you're most likely encountering mushy, slow, distorted, bloated, rather "less dynamic" bass response, all things being equal...that's what I tend to find. And I've dealt with just about everything you can imagine, in every setting!
Now the exceptions to this would be where just don't have dedicated woof's, and need to do full range from your speakers, or you are running much more efficient ACTIVE SPEAKERS!(I.E, powered subs built in already, and they're big enough to fill the room with the bass it can handle).
I think if people will just take the time (or hire someone) to properly set up their systems, crossover at 80hz, get the speakers in the right spot for coupling with the room at that 80hz crossover(including subs), and have enough sub to hanle the bass in the room it's going into, they would have some of the most amazingly fast, dynamic, powerefull, hardhitting, coherent, and solid bass they could imagine!!!
Again, I find most people problems stem from first, poor set up, room, and tweeking/calibrating, and second ill conceived equip!
Now, to adress many peoples findings(especially in smaller rooms with lower ceilings, or even very very tall ceilings) where they get a rather weeker bass problem at the "crossover" setting from their subs and satalites, what that problem is a "poor coupling" with the speakers (including sub) at that frequency in the room!!!(This is very often the problem many people get with smaller THX SEALED BOX MONITORS, that need to be carefully placed to play down to 80hz in a room) If you just get those speakers COUPLING WELL at the CRUCIAL CROSSOVER POINT, you will have no such problem!(note: this is easier for most people to get in extremely large acoustic spaces, such as commercial theaters and giant rooms!). Still, if you just play your test tones and/or fiddle around with speaker placement and listening, you can solve this issue! At first try, many poeple will stick their speakers in ANY OLD SPOT, and find they don't sound good crossed over in certain settings! So, they lower the crossover till they get more bass. Again, if you just get the speakers to couple to the room correctly at 80hz, you'll have no such issues!(i.e, "the hole in the bass syndrom"!) Of course the sub needs to play strongly right up near 80hz as well.
The last point brings another issue, and that's that your subs should play strongly up to 80hz efficienltly, and blend well! However, I find most subs, when set up carefully, can blend up that high, as long as you can blend em coherently with your speakers.
Thankfully, most powered subs are efficient enough, and fast enough up at 80hz to do the trick. Blending the sub with the mains(at the very least, all though not the last word on perfect blend with ALL THE SPEAKERS) up front can handle any of the coherence, localization issues most might encounter as well(then you gotta balance, equalize and tweek!)
Still, in a round about way, as you can tell, I gleen towards tHX's recommendations when it comes to bass managment! I think this set up gets too bad of a rap with most novices because they know NOTHING ABOUT PROPER SPEAKER SET UP IN A ROOM!!!! They stick speakers where they THINK THEY SHOULD GO, instead of where they sound the best!(bass is the single most placement critical element for speaker and seating placment!) I've played way way too long with many other set-up's, and however it does sometimes vary depending on gear/room/system, etc. Still, not deviating from this in a proper set up system(sadly, most peoples system never is) is the best way to go with most all combinations of gear and room settings most people will ever deal with!
Receiver/sub/sat systems, floor standing speakers/receiver/sub systems, even separates/full range/sub systems will all have the best potential dynamic range most offten if you set em up right in the room, and have enough ACTIVE SUBS to hanle the bass chores! Trying to get more bass being handled by passive speakers playing full range from each channel, will yeild a less controlled, fast, and authoritative bass sound to your sytem...overall, weaker! That's what I find anyway...too each is own however.
I, as an audiophile also, know far too many people who still insist on running their audiphile full range speakers, well, full range for movies with no sub!!! It's never as good, trust me. Yeah, your sub may not be as fast for less dynamically demanding music material as is the bass woofers in your expensive audiophile main speakers, but then those can't handle the EXTREMELY demanding dynamic digital bass recorded in such movies as THE HULK, Lord of Rings, Matrix, Dare Devil, whatever!
Try what THX recommends, and do what I recommended, and I think there's reall no way you can't like what you hear!..especially all you people running receivers with full range speakers!...really gotta cross over...your system will become that much more efficient and dynamic
Peace |
I'd like to add more Caviats here, and that's that, as far as domestic home theater speakers offerings go, choices of speakers that I find you can use "lower crossover settings" for on your pre/pro or receivers, include those that have more efficiency and control in the bass reigion, but that don't have big enough woofers to handle the WHOLE LOWER BASS SPECTRUM on their own. Speakers like smaller "powered towers", like Def Tech's smaller BP2004/2006's and such are good candidates, in big enough rooms, to have the crossover setting at possibly 40-65hz, rather than 80hz! The reason for this is that the powered amp in the speakers that's responsible for handling the bass is capable of exerting better control than passive designs in the lower bass! Yet, the small woofers these speaker have can use some assistance from larger woofers down lower! Still, like the Linn speakers, these active choices offer some more flexibilty options.
Now, again, you can get better/more adequate results if you use lower crossover points in your HT processor with much much more efficient sensitive passive speakers, like Pro Audio market offers, but that doesn't equate to most peoples home audio chioces. Case in point, you can go over to Sam Ash and pick up some JBL or EV speaekrs that are over 100db sensitive at 1db/watt! These horn speakers will hit hard down lower playing full range, but even those still sound better for movies if you cross em over(effectively bi-amping your system) at 80hz and introduce dedicated active woofers into the system, like THX recommends. Still, getting more active woofers into the system greatly extends the dynamic range of the system. But trying to accomplish that by utilizing the bass into the mains has trade-off and negetive effects that aren't practical in the end for a full blown hT set up.
Yet, for the record, pro audio speakers aren't as refined if you need to listen to a lot of casual music. Home market offeres more refinement of sound, if sacrificing dynamic range. This is where sub/sat combo's become more viable for the home market as a solution.
Peace |
