As suggested already, that would depend entirely upon the quality of the respective DAC's (and with the separate DAC, marginally upon the cord between transport and DAC). Also the separate DAC may take advantage of its own isolated power supply, FWIW. One other advantage of a separate DAC is the ability to take advantage of PC Audio which arguably can sound superior to redbook. Certainly the Modwright Transporter I use sounds better than any redbook player I've ever owned, and that is essentially a separate DAC combined with a music server. Unless your player has a digital input (not that many do), you will not be able to use the internal DAC for PC audio purposes. There are a few companies that offer a 30-day trial period. The highly acclaimed Benchmark DAC1 might be a place to start, but my experience is, well, I returned mine. YMMV as plenty of folks seem to like them. Only disadvantage there is that there is only 30-days for burn-in (enough time if you are vigilant about it). |
Good points, Blindjim. There are a handful of DAC's that also convert USB directly to I2S (native language to the DAC) which circumvents the SPDIF interface (an additional conversion) in between. I think Empirical does a conversion to the Benchmark to accomplish this, as does the new Redwine Isabella in stock form, as well as others. Just instinctively keeping the signal down to as few conversions as possible would seem like a good thing. I'm not sure if this is similar to "asynchronous" USB conversion that is utilized by Wavelength in their recent versions of DACs, but I think these technologies are doing alot to address the de-jittering, as Jim put it, and computer>DAC connection and the clocking issues therein. Each manufacturer seems to be pursuing their own approach, and ultimately they all present a slightly different flavor. I was astounded in comparing DAC's recently, just how differently they can present music. The fact that so many love the Benchmark and I found it un-listenable (the highs were just too strident for me) just supports what I've always said - it is just as subjective as anything else in this hobby and you really just have to use your own ears and your own system/room/music to really make a judgment for yourself. |
Kijanki - I listened at length to two versions. One was an early version, but post-2002, which was thoroughly burned in. I listened in three very different systems to that one. The second was more recent and was a current, USB version which I ordered direct from Benchmark. Again, I listened in two different systems to that one. Since this was from the factory I had to burn it in myself. By the time I returned it I'd estimate I'd put around 200 hours or more on it by leaving it on whenever I could, so I don't know if it could have sounded better given more time. I don't know whether it came from the factory with any hours on it since they do have the return policy. The latter version was definitely an improvement over the former, but still suffered from stridency in the high end which ultimately made it difficult to listen to for long periods. I found it on the colder side, a sound I'd associate in some ways with SS amplification. OTOH, I heard it in several systems at RMAF and I very much like what I heard there, but I did not listen to any one at great length to determine whether any similar traits to what I heard at home existed in the long run. I have no doubts it can sound good to some folks - clearly it is praised by many - it just did not sound good to me, rather, in my systems in sounded clinical and a bit harsh. In comparison I much preferred an MHDT Paradisea which presented the same music with a much more natural presence. The early version I had I compared to a Wavelength Brick and a very old Muse Model 2+ both of which I preferred, the Muse being more similar to the Benchmark, but not nearly as harsh, while the Wavelength was a sharper contrast being a kinder gentler presentation. I believe all the DAC's I preferred were NOS DAC's if I'm not mistaken. I also tend to like DAC's and players with a tube output stage in general, though not as a rule. As with everything here, YMMV - to each their own. |
One last question if a Wadia player is so good why do they have to be moded? As an addendum to the answer above - Modders tend to choose some of the best platforms to build upon because it has the potential to show off their work on it even more than a modest component might since the construction that is already there is very stable and revealing to begin with. In a similar way you may experience this if you start investing effectively in better and better components you tend to find that your system becomes more and more revealing of any changes you make to it (at least that has been my experience). That's also the ticket to the merry-go-round, or the sure sign of a bad case of Audiophilial Nervosa. Also, in some cases, components are considered for the space available within their chassis to build into (an Oppo player does not have much room to add anything, though there are mods for them), but I'd guess that would take a back seat to the consideration of what is there already in stock form. There is probably also a psychological component as well - Folks who are willing to invest serious $ in modifying a component for better performance may prefer to be investing in a solid platform that has bling factor, pride of ownership and all that. Are you going to want to spend $1200 modifying a $170 Oppo player? None of this suggests you have to choose this direction. My experience with modded products (GNSC, Modwright, APL) suggests very strongly that skilled modders absolutely can make a significant improvement to a component. I'm sure there are also those out there who do mods who are taking advantage of this, but are not necessarily as skilled as others, who do not make a big difference. If you are considering a modded product I'd do some real-world research on what folks have to say about their experiences with those you are considering. You also may want to consider what mods do to the resale value of the product. In the case of the modders I mentioned they certainly seem to hold their value in most cases. |
The problem as I see it is modding a whatever is ambiguous. Definitely via mods there's gonna be a change... it'll sure be different. Likely better too... but better how, seems the pertinent question.... and there are others. You could make the same statement about making the choice among stock components. Each will have subtle, or significant differences, and the preference for them would be subjective. The reason to mod is, ostensibly, to improve what is already there. I agree with you in that I see no reason to buy a brand new Wadia and mod it unless you have money to burn - but what if your preference is strongly for the sound of a modded Wadia, rather than a stock one. How is that "ambiguous", and why is that any different from choosing a stock Wadia over a stock Opus 21? |
WEll, forgive me here, but just where does one go to hear that modded Waddia beforehand? Hmmm, well, I guess you have a point, but some of the modders do show up at the bigger shows (RMAF, VSAC, CES), and you could hear their stuff there. Just like hearing anything in an environment and in a system that is not the one you bring it home to (just like listening to a stock piece at a dealer), I'd opine that it's all a risk if you ask me...you just have to take intelligent risks and see what works for you. You could also query here and see if anyone local to you owns one you could go listen to. I don't do the retail thing, and rarely buy anything at all at a retail shop. 90% of what I buy is on the used market and is in some ways a leap of faith, but usually I have either heard examples somewhere, or researched and paid attention to who's saying what about a particular piece or manufacturer I'm interested in. Ultimately you don't know anything about any piece in terms of how it will work in your system, in your room, with your music, and to your ears, unless you actually try it. If you want guarantees, I guess there are none. I've found myself to be pretty savvy to the used market and I think I have a pretty good sense of what I can buy and sell something for, and what holds its value and what does not. In this way I've tried out alot of different things over the years and have been able to hone in on which direction suits me and my tastes. Many components have come and gone in my system, but a few have stayed for the long run. I cannot recall ever having taken a beating over any of my buying and selling. I usually just break even and have the experience as value added. There are modders I've come to have experience with that I took a risk on and it paid off and I would go to them again and again. Top of that list would be Dan Wright over at Modwright. GNSC also was a worthwhile investment in my experience. I've heard APL's Denon mod (at the middle of what he offers) and let me tell you it is a damn fine digital front end. I guess Alex has gone AWOL though, which is unusual for him as I understand it, and that might be, I suppose, another risk of any smaller manufacturer. Look at how many small boutique manufacturers have come and gone...some have produce great products too, but that doesn not guarantee success. It's a tough business and those who survive are probably doing more than just one thing right. I can tell you this from my own personal experience, and YMMV, the best things that have come into my life, without any exceptions that I can think of, have come as the result of taking some significant risk. I guess it's not for everyone, but it's worked for me. I understand your hesitations, Jim. There is certainly the other side of the coin - there's some wisdom in playing it safe and being conservative. Do what suits you best. |
Blindjim - I don't get the connection to motorcycle performance mods aimed at boosting torque and HP for faster lap times. Those are mods easily measured by a mechanical (objective) device. Humans are not objective. Music is emotional. You can chart brainwaves, pulse rate, skin temp, finger movements, etc. But what all that actually translates to an individual cannot be quantified or experienced by anyone else. If you wanted to find a parallel in motorcyle performance mods, I would say it is more akin to mods to suspension, chassis, rubber, frame geometry - those things that are specifically tailored to an individuals preferences and riding style. If you ride you know that dyno charts do not tell you the whole story about how a bike will take you around a course. Even with the closer metaphor I would still say that the reproduction of music in your home is an emotionally charged experience and cannot be quantified by charts and numbers. |
...curious lack of objective press reviews... That is an oxymoron. Where have yous seen "objective" press reviews on anything? How could there be such a thing, a review being written by a human being is bound to be subjective simply by definition. Your clarification on your hot rod metaphor still doesn't connect with me. You're talking about mods that can be measured on a dyno (which really don't tell the whole story about how they translate real-world anyway - 90 ft lbs of torque may not be a good thing if the suspension and chassis isn't up to it, or if you don't know how to handle it). Also, there is an emotional disconnect with those mods, or rather it's not the same kinds of emotions involved in the enjoyment of music and the reproduction thereof. Bottom line is that the numbers do not tell the whole story and "objective" is only a tiny part of the picture. In my case I tend to largely ignore such things beyond the general knowledge of the component in question. What would an "objective" review of a modification read like? |
Somewhere in the archives from years ago you might find some comments I made in listening and comparing an ARC LS2B I had modded by GNSC. My friend had the sme modest preamp in stock form and we swapped out the tube when we compared. Same cables, same system. Bottom line in that case is that we both readily heard improvements in resolution and sounstage. I do not recall specifics. Is that "objective". Someone else listening may have. Heard no difference at all. Which viewpoint would you invest in?
As far as the scooter mod - bolt-on exhausts can easily be as much a detractor from performance as they could an improvement. Adding such a mod with no attention paid to adjusting the fuel delivery (rejetting, re-mapping, etc.) Is far more likely to result in a drop in performance. Some don't work regardless of tuning. I'd really wonder how sensitive one could be to a seat-of-pants judgement on the boost in power on a 50cc scooter of, perhaps 1 hp in some part of the throttle range?! That also could apply to audio mods: our aural memory is actually pretty limited. So how sensitive are you going to be to the changes in a modified player you haven't heard for three weeks or more? |
Your reply sounded superbly utilitarian and pragmatic until you let that slip in! LOL aesthetics is important after all! I 'll admit I am just as guilty of that as the next guy ;-) I guess I ain't "the next guy": I don't give a tinker's cuss what the thing looks like if it performs well. This is ironic considering I'm in the visual arts and am a very visual person. It's all about whatever serves the music for me. If it happens to be ugly I'll put it behind cabinet doors (most of my system is - though I'm sure many would consider those things beautiful). Most of what I see in audio design is pretty boring visually as far as I'm concerned - most of what others here consider beautiful just looks like yet another variation on billet boxes with blue lights. The only designer I'd consider an exception to that is Electronluv, but I cannot afford Josh's stuff. If I could, it would be out for all to see. |
My 3910 bears NO sonic relation to what it used to sound like prior to Alex's rebuild - it is totally different machine, but in the same box and with the same crappy transport.(nobody's perfect...) A good friend had an APL 3910. I spent a couple of days at his place listening to various music I was very familiar with. It sounded great. I never heard a stock unit, but it sure didn't sound like any $1k stock player I've ever heard. As far as Alex being AWOL, he should be back this weekend and explained his absence on the APL HiFi forum several weeks ago. A number of us have also received e-mails from him about ongoing projects. Glad to hear it. Since most folks here are not likely on the APL forum why don't you share his post here (or the gist of it). There have been a few posts on A'gon and AA that indicated there were folks who had been waiting for their modified players for quite some time, and that his customer relations person had to leave for health reasons. Good to hear he's on his way back - seems like he's very talented at what he does. |
