What speakers can b considered as world reference?

A bit aside from the question, but I don't really like this common audiophile thing where averyone compares speakers to the "live sound". If you want a speaker to sound like it did live, go get a 15" JBL PA speaker and maybe an overcranked Hartke subwoofer. Turn it up louder than you are ever comfortable listening to it, add croud noise and a high noise floor and that's what it will sound like live. (except for classical and intimate jazz of course, where there is no PA system) I myself would rather have a high end system where I can hear things recorded in a much more controlled environment such as a recording studio that you would never hear live. (pages turning, chairs creaking, musicians breathing ect) Now, I do however like studio recordings that were made when all the musicians were playing at the same time, preserving the musicians interactions, and dynamics. Audio quality though live, is normally too loud, lots of excessive reverberation, overpronounced bass and not that hifi. Just my 2 cents. Am I crazy, or do I just not follow the mainstream?

As far as world references, I would have to say all the big dogs with $20K and up speakers. They all will tell you that they make a world class speaker. Most of them will tell you that theirs is the best. The thing is,it's all about opinion. And... In my opinion I'd have to say Sonus Fabers Flagship, Focals Flagship, B+W's flagship, Martin Logans $125K monstrosity, Revels Salon 2, Wilsons Alexandria, and the list goes on. All different, but all reference level stuff. The right answer is what sounds the best to you.

In response to Drew

>I've never been to a concert where an orchestra or choir used any sort of amplification. I've also heard unamplified small jazz ensembles and soloists playing classical guitar, sax, piano, hammer dulcimer, harp, violin, viola, cello, accordion, etc.

Thats why I said in my previous post"(except for classical and intimate jazz of course, where there is no PA system)" If those are the types of music you listen to then "live" is just the musicians and their instruments. My post was entirely refering to most concerts that people go to. I think I've been to maybe one concert in my life that didn't have a PA system, and that was the Cleveland Orchestra. ALmost everybody else uses amplification. (in Cleveland) These are the likes of Coldplay, Rush, U2, Phill Collins, Sarah Mclaclahn, Norah Jones, Police, Trans Siberian Orchestra, Enya, AC/DC, Metallica, Joe Satriani and the list goes on forever. I will say, we don't get many intimate artsy jazz clubs or the like around here, (though I wish we did) but for most music there is a PA in a large scale venue with about 35,000 people there. I have even seen the singing angels around christmas time also, and guess what? Sound reinforcement. Even small bars/clubs have sound reinforcement like 99% of the time. Otherwise the drummer and guitarist will drown out the singer. They have to have it.

So I think we are sort of saying the same thing, but from different paradigms. I would agree that "live" sound if defined as intimate jazz or orchestra with out the aid of a PA can sound really good, especially if you are sitting in the "sweet" spot. In that case I could see that you might want to try to arrange an audio system that you could close your eyes and feel like you are there. My original post was geared for the majority of live concerts that are not that acoustically superior, are played in big echoey venues at incredible volumes. Lots of noise, the bass hits you like a minute after the treble, and depending where you are sitting, you could be getting all left channel or all right channel. THis was why I was confused as to why so many people want to replicate "live" sound. I think it sounds like a good theory in their minds, but when it comes down to it... it isn't.

Lets face it, when you go see Rush (or any other large venue players) live, and you close your eyes, there is no way to tell where the musicians are in the acoustic space, there is very little soundstaging, and imaging. They are also not necesarily at their best that night, and they make mistakes! I heard Eric Johnson live, and he was having some trouble hearing himself, and it sounded way off. But his CD sounds fabulous. This kind of live I would never want to duplicate. That was my point.

In response to the more recent MBL discussion, I think they are amazing. I've heard them and they are amazing. Spooky.

Bose?? I just threw up a little in my mouth. :) It's funny as a hifi salesman, I get people of all sorts comming in to listen. One moment sticks out in my mind. We had a $15,000 pair of class A uberspeakers on display for demo hooked up with reference level electronics, and a customer came in with his girlfriend and listened to them. Without flinching he got up and said with a proud and slightly arrogant flair, "I'm more of a Bose kind of guy". I think it was to look good in front of his girlfriend thinking that he had the inside track on what true hifi was all about, and that he was more of a connesueir of fine high end products. We laughed for quite some time after he left.

It is amazing to me how good of a job Bose has done on advertising. They could tell people the sky was actually red, and I think a large percentage of people would believe it! The 901's were the only O.K. speaker that Bose made. In their time they were decent I suppose (not now), but most peoples ideas of Bose are the acoustimass 2" paper woofered little cubes that they now sell like double cheesburgers from McDonalds. It all comes from how much have you been exposed to, and how far have you really gotten into it. People come in all the time and ask for Bose, but it is only because they don't know any better. They've been baraged with commercials so much telling them that Bose is the best, that they just end up believing them. It's our job to educate them.

P.S. I have spoke with a Bose engineer at an audio convention. He said his major design constraint when engineering the Bose cubes was how to get decent sound pressure for a $4 manufacturing cost. $4!!! How did you think they got that huge advertising budget?

>And get real, the Wave Radio is much more accurate than those $4.00 cubes and your hoity toity high end garbage speakers.

Ahhh lol. That's a good one. The $500 alarm clock Bose makes sounds good compared to $20 Kmart alarm clocks, I will give you that. It's even passable as backround music sometimes. It's designed as a self stated "lifestyle product" with the main design consideration is for it to be small and profitable, with a better than average sound for something of it's size. Although everything else at it's size is much, much cheaper. By the way, I had a pair of Bose 901's several years back, and my grandma has two wave radios which I've listened to exstensively, so I know from experience, not just conjecture. I would say they were probably better than anything radio shack sells. Descent for the average consumers use. But this is a HiFi audio forum asking about world reference speakers. Here most listeners go to great lengths of tunning their systems to get the perfect sound. Many of us have dedicated rooms with acoustical treatments, floating walls, non-parallel surfaces, vibration isolation, power filtration with dedicated lines, ect. "Hoity toity high end garbage speakers" you say? This forum is about people with a passion for their high end systems, who dedicate a large portion of their expendable income on them. We search out components that have just the right balance with others in a system that achieve a total synergy together. I myself listen for as I call it "the glow", when a system of the utmost fidelity reaches a point of excellence, detail, balance and synergy, that the sound has a special glow to it. And yes, sometimes it can get expensive. Have you checked out any of the users systems yet? I think you may have found your way into the wrong forum.

However...It's fine that you obviously love your Bose products.(or work for Bose) Then just enjoy them. I'm not trying to be rude, but most people that think Bose is the best, just haven't been exposed to what true hifi is yet. It's not your fault or anything, I would just suggest going out one day, with an open mind and an unassuming atittude, bring a few of your favorite CD's and go listen to a "better" system at a specialty hifi shop. You may be suprised. Be carefull though, if the bug bites you there is no turning back.