@geoffkait just a small correction the Vibraplane isolation stand is $2500 not $3000 as you stated in a previous thread.
What’s your vote for the most ridiculous, overpriced, and useless tweak?
My vote: Furutech Outlet Cover 105 NCF $220, with “special crystalline material that has two “active” properties.” https://www.thecableco.com/outlet-cover-105-ncf.html
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Round 2 of Are these tweaks overpriced? You decide. The Quantum Clip from PBW Electronics 500 Pounds, that’s price not weight. Chunky Black Pen for marking inner edge of CDs 100 💯 Pounds Audio Magic Beeswax Fuse $250 I realize speakers are not tweaks but does anyone think $650,000 is too much money 💰💰 for the new Wilson WAMMs? |
So difficult to stick to the title of the thread isn’t it? The gravitational pull of FREE ADVERTISING still blights the audiogon forum. No thread is immune, not even this one. Let me remind you, we’re discussing ridiculous, useless, and overpriced tweaks. For all you would be salesmen, entrepreneurs, fanboys, shills etc try the following link. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/most-useful-tweaks-that-are-sensible-and-really-make-a-notice... |
It would be a good idea to isolate all the printed circuit boards from the transformerThere are a variety of anti-vibration grommets and stand-offs that can be used with a pcb. Steve McCormack uses the anti-vibration stand-offs and he placed the large Plitron toroidal transformer in my DNA-2 LAE on a metal plate that was then isolated from the chassis. |
I’m going to help you guys out a little bit. Here’s some food for thought regarding iconic audiophile tweaks that might possibly be a tad overpriced. You decide. Schumann Frequency Generator from Acoustic Revive $800 Tiny Little Bowl resonators set of 3 in pure gold, platinum and silver $3000 Minus K Isolation stand $3000 Vibraplane isolation stand $3000 Furutech LP demagnetizer $2700 |
Getting back to the subject for just a second I actually don’t see why some cable elevators cost an arm and a leg as suspending/isolating them with fishing line from eye 👁 hooks in the ceiling would accomplish the same thing or more by isolating the cables from electric static fields AND vibration. There’s always Statue of Liberty souvenirs if you must have something on the floor. 🗽🗽🗽 |
For a component the damping should be applied to the transformer, capacitors and in the case of a CDP the transport mechanism. Damping the chassis is not a bad idea but doesn’t go far enough. Besides, due to the ineffectiveness of damping materials for very low frequencies, I.e., 0-20 Hz, vibration isolation is required. It would be a good idea to isolate all the printed circuit boards from the transformer or even remove the transformer. The bolts holding the transformer should be loosened or removed. It is one of the worst ideas ever to directly couple the transformer to the chassis. Other than for shipping or moving there is no reason for the transformer to be bolted to the chassis. Put springs under it. Since the entire building and everything in it is moving right along with the seismic type vibration, the chassis is still vibrating (at very low frequencies) even after you did the best you could with damping. Since the resonant frequencies of the CD laser assembly, turntable cartridge, tonearm and platter are very low i.e., 10-12 Hz, only isolation techniques will be effective in reducing their being excited by very low frequency vibration. By isolation techniques I mean mass-on-spring or mag lev. As I oft opine, a thorough and effective plan of isolation and resonance control is required. |
I slightly disagree regarding over-damping. A chassis can not be over-damped, it can only be under-damped. If you apply the wrong damping material, it can be under-damped at certain frequencies and amplitudes. That can be worse than no damping. If you apply the correct type of damping that uniformly and consistently eliminates all chassis resonance and vibration at all frequencies and amplitudes, then you have total damping, which is what you want. Why on earth would you want the chassis to be vibrating at all? Even worse, to be vibrating only at selected frequencies? Converting vibrational energy to current and then heat in situ is a more instantaneous and effective method of dealing with the problem of vibration, than any isolation method. As long as all frequencies and amplitudes are dealt with consistently. Unwanted vibrations will bounce and reflect throughout a component chassis many times before exiting via the earth or the atmosphere. You don’t want that. Kill ’em fast. Convert them to heat on their first pass. |
You are right Geoffkait , isolation and resonance control are 2 things and different things to clean and control... In my case the sorbothane duro 70 (other duro are problematic for me) is glued near the drivers speakers and under the feet and it seems to control resonance with success...The 2 granite plates + bamboo+cork+quartz seems to isolate relatively well my gear...It is not perfect but the difference are so great that I stuck with that...Cost is King in my sonic country... |
Side note: there are many materials, I oft pick on Sorbothane not unfairly, but others,too, that are either sold as viscoelastic material or marketed as audiophile material that actually do more harm than good, even if there is some constrained layer damping going on there can be some energy storage going on too. The objective is to interfere as little as possible with the rapid exit of vibrations from the system whilst disallowing vibration to enter the system from the floor. I’ve oft talked about the necessity for a comprehensive plan of both vibration isolation AND resonance control. Many of these so called viscoelastic materials over do things, and even though you might admire your handiwork, you’ve committed yourself to a life of over damped sound. It’s what Acoustic Revive calls in their badly translated marketing literature, over-dumping. |
My system, even if the sound is wonderful now, is very low cost audio system, then almost all tweaks are for me overpriced...They are ridiculous only after I have try them or replicate them if their use is revealed not useful...They are overpriced tweaks that are very useful, resonators for example, it is simple to replicate them at low cost... |
Yes the treatment of the room is the most important tweak for any audio system at any price... After that the cleaning of my electrical room and house grid and audio grid with varied stones and crystals... Last but not least the treatment of mechanical vibrations : I use simple very low cost material with a success without defect...Sandwiches consisting of one granite plate on 4 little feet of quartz, sorbothane on this plate with another granite plate where I put cork plate and finally a bamboo plate with sorbothane under the speakers...The same sandwiches under the dac and under the amplifier... All is crystal clear with that bass included...But I have also treated my speakers with sorbothane and stones and heavy damping with a concrete mass ... At the end my audio system plays at his peak optimum, I know that because there is absolutely no comparison between the same system before and after all that...I am proud of the fact that my amplifier(100 bucks) my dac (50 bucks) my speakers (30 bucks) had a sound that make me jealous no more of my friend magneplanar system...The cost of my tweaks exceed the cost of my vintage system,but is far lower that a new piece of gear and without that my system is not on par with my dreams at all nor with reality if I compare it to the magneplanar system... |
Geoff ... These are just a few of the things I’ve done to reduce micro-vibrations. All of my electronics sit on a multi-layered rack, with constrained damping material between each layer. Then the shelves are finished off with an attractive finish material. You can see the rack in my virtual systems. In addition to the above, each electrical component sits on a nicely finished, very heavy granite platform. Each granite platform was built in two layers, with constrained damping material between the layers. The surfaces of the granite slabs are machined to very fine tolerances to assure a perfectly level fit for the dampening material. My turntable sits on one of the granite platforms described above. Then, between the turntable and the granite platform is what could be described as small foam donuts with a carbon steel ball bearing tightly pressed into the center of each "donut." The separate Well-Tempered TT motor sits on those "donuts" as well. On graphene ... Perfect Path Technologies all the way, baby. Elizabeth ... I had a heck of a time getting my floor standing speakers to sound right on the raised foundation. Bass was boomy, which of course, affected the rest of the sound, I tried the above granite platforms under the speakers. That cleared up the sound immensely, but there was virtually no bass. So, I bought two of the Mapleshade 2" thick maple platforms. I spiked the platforms to the floor, then spiked the speakers to the platforms. Walla! everything snapped into focus. The result was a very articulate, deep bass, and a much-improved midrange and highs. I highly recommend the Mapleshade maple platforms. You can order them unfinished and save a lot of money on them. That’s what I did. Here’s a link: https://www.mapleshadestore.com/airdriedmapleplatforms.php Frank PS: The glass tabletop is removed for listening sessions. Nice improvement there as well. |
I tried to tell you. Sorbothane is one of most vile and pernicious materials ever foisted on naive gullible audiophiles. It seems like the perfect material, too. Not too hard, not too soft. Just right! Suck those offending vibrations right up!! Whoopie! 🤗 I suspect you’re just starting to see the tip of the iceberg. Wait’ll ya start playing around with springs, NASA grade ceramics, granite, constrained layer damping. Just think of all the combinations. But you have to have a plan. Otherwise, it’s just shooting blanks in the dark. |
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People still get their panties in a bunch over certain words and phrases. You know, like crystalline, crystal, quantum, Graphene, artificial atoms ⚛️, directionality, anything perceived or in reality as not in the signal path, things of that nature. Most likely a simple case of neophobia. Don’t freak out and don’t get hung up. 🤗 Hey, where did all the Blind Test fanatics go? 😳 “I bet it can’t pass a double blind test!” 😛 |
"I’m struggling now to think of one ’fact’ that could be independently validated. Can you do better than me?" Not sure what is meant by "independently validated," but here are some "facts:" 1. Tweaks that reduce vibration are effective. 2. Tweaks that reduce miro-arcing are effective. 3. Tweaks that reduce RFI are effective. 4. Tweaks that reduce slap echo in rooms are effective. There are plenty of aftermarket products out there that really help with the above. Frank |
cd318 Here are the words of one of the most respected figures in this industry, Harbeth’s Alan Shaw - "I have this growing feeling that there may not be one single generally held ’fact’ amongst audiophiles that is actually true and demonstrable under controlled conditions. Is it possible that the entire audiophile industry has foundations of sand? What is odd is that hard, cold physics is (obviously) brought to bear by equipment designers to create and produce physical audio equipment, but that hard, cold physics is then replaced by mythology when the product reaches the audiophile marketplace. I’m struggling now to think of one ’fact’ that could be independently validated. Can you do better than me? How did a hardware industry of the 50’s transition into a fashion industry where there are no absolutes, no norms, no frames of reference .... all opinion. Is it any wonder the industry is stagnant? Expensive blue-sky R&D is unnecessary because a new marketing spin will keep the production lines flowing with yesterday’s technology. It really is a strange business and for sure, the consumer is not benefiting." >>>>Huh? He’s struggling to think of one fact that can be independently validated? An obvious case of brain freeze. What is he even talking about? 🤔 |
@glow_worm, “Footnote: I almost stopped reading the post when I saw the poster “has been involved in the hobby for over 40 years.” It’s kind of a tip off of what’s to follow.” Any possibility you could enlighten us as to what you meant by this? Guessing…only the self-anointed ones have valid opinions? But, eh, what do I know right?" I think you may have alluded to the answer yourself earlier on in your post. "Unfortunate because many newbies are interested in getting started in what can be a rewarding lifetime hobby, they post, and get ‘jumped’." Let's face it, this can be a daunting hobby to get into. You could never suspect that there's no end of shysters between you and your path to audio satisfaction. Even many dealers, reviewers and forum posters are in on the scam! Here are the words of one of the most respected figures in this industry, Harbeth's Alan Shaw - "I have this growing feeling that there may not be one single generally held 'fact' amongst audiophiles that is actually true and demonstrable under controlled conditions. Is it possible that the entire audiophile industry has foundations of sand? What is odd is that hard, cold physics is (obviously) brought to bear by equipment designers to create and produce physical audio equipment, but that hard, cold physics is then replaced by mythology when the product reaches the audiophile marketplace. I'm struggling now to think of one 'fact' that could be independently validated. Can you do better than me? How did a hardware industry of the 50's transition into a fashion industry where there are no absolutes, no norms, no frames of reference .... all opinion. Is it any wonder the industry is stagnant? Expensive blue-sky R&D is unnecessary because a new marketing spin will keep the production lines flowing with yesterday's technology. It really is a strange business and for sure, the consumer is not benefiting." https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/speaker-design/1614-damping-factor-an... Talking of useless tweaks for the consumer, how about any music file above 320kbps? |
They're not? Well, there you have it. A happy home for the abnormal it is. Sounds more than a trifle delusional and self serving there. I say again, "Anyone who thinks audio is a plug-and-play hobby doesn’t understand the problem. " misstates the issue. There is no "problem"unless one creates it in their own mind. For most, plug and play is desirable. Most do not consider the purchase of a pricey component the starting point for anything but enjoyment. If that enjoyment is effected by the application of juju, that's fine for yourself. To then posit that all High enders are likewise aberrant is silly.Tweakers are and have always been in the minority. Big deal. It's not the tweaking that's the issue at all. It's the incessant noise about it. Got it? |
kqvkq It’s easy to think that because one thinks in a certain fashion that others do as well. That’s not how it works necessarily. Some may think as you do. Some will not. Consider the quote "Anyone who thinks audio is a plug-and-play hobby doesn’t understand the problem. " For most, audio IS a plug and play hobby. Most prefer to purchase a completed and well thought out product, plug it in, and be done with it. Most normal people anyway. >>>>>Well, “most normal people” according to your definition are not really in the high end so who cares? No offense to you personally. |
Wise words indeed... I agree with your rant...But my point and I must say that yes I had ants in my pants,my point is about those that shout again the interest and value of any tweaks for the easy pleasure to shout against something in an audio forum... For the rest you are totally right...My best to you... |
It's easy to think that because one thinks in a certain fashion that others do as well. That's not how it works necessarily. Some may think as you do. Some will not. Consider the quote "Anyone who thinks audio is a plug-and-play hobby doesn’t understand the problem. " For most, audio IS a plug and play hobby. Most prefer to purchase a completed and well thought out product, plug it in, and be done with it. Most normal people anyway. I remember when I had Marantz 8b's and for a time 5's. There was all that nervous fiddling about with the bias, it was such a bother going back and forth and knowing that even though I had set it yesterday it had moved and that it was wrong now and I had to get up and set it again. Who needs that? When I started making my own amplifiers, and I've made hundreds by hand from scratch, I vowed to make them all with cathode bias. Nothing to adjust. No nervous fiddling about. No fuss. No bother. It wasn't only the old adage that if you give the customer something to adjust, you can count on it being adjusted incorrectly, it was that I could not stand the bother that the other method caused. I've never had a complaint from a customer that making things easier for them was an issue. Never. Now some live to fuss and fiddle. That's fine for them. To project their psychosis onto others such that plug and play is some sort of problem is seriously misguided. Not all audiophiles need to tweak and twerk and fuss and fiddle like whirling dervishes. Some of us prefer the ease and restful repose that listening to music can provide without the frenetic jumping about that constantly twiddling entails. Is the point of the hobby listening and enjoying or is it in fussing and perhaps pestering others endlessly such that they must listen to one's misguided viewpoint? Why would one spend quite so much time and effort constantly badgering others that there is a "problem" when in fact the problem is the badgering, not that others disagree? Why are others not allowed to disagree? Honestly, those that can't sit down because they have ants in their pants have my permission to do so. Be as you are. Enjoy yourself. We're all different. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Do not however, attempt to presume that your way is the only way or even the way of the majority of audiophiles. Most really do not care about obsessions of that type. It would be better if there were a bit of grace and acceptance of the fact that there is push back when one's ideas are not roundly accepted as Gospel. Ever deal with a pushy salesman that would not shut up? Ever know somebody that, when they finally leave a group, everybody was leaping to make comments about? Ever know somebody like that? I'm just sayin' |
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When I wrote the OP, I thought that some of the stuff being peddled these days is SO outlandish that there would be a general consensus, and we could share some examples. Oops. It wasn’t a conspiracy to divide people into “two camps” (and then divide and conquer apparently). Ok well it was, but it wasn’t my idea…it was my Mini-Me. My apologies, he can be an uncontrollable rascal. One thing I did learn with this thread is about the ‘old guard’ on the Forum. Some are great (knowledgeable and generous), and some...not so much. Unfortunate because many newbies are interested in getting started in what can be a rewarding lifetime hobby, they post, and get ‘jumped’. Surprising because this is not politics, it’s (ostensibly) a hobby. Out of all this though, I have to admit that this one threw me Geoffkait: “Footnote: I almost stopped reading the post when I saw the poster “has been involved in the hobby for over 40 years.” It’s kind of a tip off of what’s to follow.” Any possibility you could enlighten us as to what you meant by this? Guessing…only the self-anointed ones have valid opinions? But, eh, what do I know right? |
This thread is in danger of being strangely hijacked into a pro advocacy of tweaking via various parties with financial interests in doing so. Strange because there is a concurrent thread advocating tweaks running right now. Useless plausible tweaks mentioned so far. Aftermarket mains cables Exotic interconnects (non shielded ofc) Loudspeaker cables (non ofc) Ridiculous turntable clamps. As for useless implausible ones, take your pick from any of the seemingly endless ones being regularly hawked here on the audiogon forum by the usual suspects. These sharks insist on proving the old adage that a sucker is born every minute. Free advertising never loses its appeal I guess. Now let's see if we can stick to discussing useless tweaks, shall we? |
Any tweaks can work or less so,or not, for you and your ears, particular room, particular systems but only if you try it...Some are easy to figure out why they work...Like the VPI brick, or the iron meteorite that I use for the same reason...I absolutely not spend big money on tweak, if possible replicate them... |
astewart89444 @geoffkait I agree with @mahgister above. Thanks for the psaudio post. I admit I am in Paul’s camp. Although I have overcome some initial hesitations and tried tweaks that seemed to make some intuitive sense to me, it will probably take someone gifting me the tweak before I try any that seem bat crap crazy to me. >>>>I know what you mean. But as a matter of fact the “preposterous” tweaks PS audio reviewed in the article I linked to are actually among the least outrageous and easiest to explain tweaks that I’m aware of. That’s why I am kind of surprised Paul at PS Audio was so quick to say those tweaks seemed outrageous to him, to make a whole article out of them. And I'm also a little surprised one of his favorite expressions is, “I have no idea why it works but works it does.” It’s almost as if he’s afraid to be perceived as gullible. As I’ve oft alluded to, there are some seriously mind-blowing 🤯 tweaks out there, you know, ones that really will keep you up at night. 😳 But VPI Brick, green pen, and Mpingo Disc are, frankly, Child’s Play. Nothing to get hung about. Anyone who thinks audio is a plug-and-play hobby doesn’t understand the problem. |
@geoffkait I agree with @mahgister above. Thanks for the psaudio post. I admit I am in Paul's camp. Although I have overcome some initial hesitations and tried tweaks that seemed to make some intuitive sense to me, it will probably take someone gifting me the tweak before I try any that seem bat crap crazy to me. |
PS Audio - “Fear of Tweaks” (tales of the intrepid high end electronics designer and his adventures into the Great Beyond) teaser: PS Audio Fear of Tweaks Change can be tough for me, especially when the means to an end make no sense. Like green pens on CD edges, demagnetizers, magic stones, voodoo dots, resonators aligning the earth to my stereo system. Ideas presented to me that I cannot make sense of get put on hold. Sometimes indefinitely. Sometimes forever. I remember the first time this became apparent to me. Harry Weisfeld’s, VPI Brick. See full article at,https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fear-of-tweaks/ |
