Pop music is recorded at a uniformly loud level which covers up the inherent deficiencies of the LP medium. |
Vinyl may have some good characteristics, but to be completely truthful, low background noise, dynamic range, and separation (all things that can be precisely measured)are not among them. Of these deficiencies, surface noise, including clicks and rumble, are most obvious. However, some people have developed an ability to "listen through" the noise, and some have gone so far as to convince themselves, and try to convince others, that surface noise doesn't exist. For them, perhaps that's true. But if you are disturbed by surface noise the solution is simply to use another medium such as CD or mag tape. |
Albertporter...Too bad that comments you disagree with tend to get lost in the great Audiogon computer.
1. Have you ever actually measured the signal to noise ratio of the LP medium? It isn't that hard.
2. What is the separation spec for your phono pickup (at various frequencies)?
3. By what means do you determine that I have never auditioned High End phono equipment?
4. I will give you the benefit of my doubt, and say that there is no surface noise generated in your superb phono playback system.
But some of us, like Sufentanil, live in the real world where surface noise is the major sonic deficiency of LPs. How else would you explain the great lengths to which the industry and audiophiles have, at one time or another, gone to adress this issue.
...RIAA equalization
...sratch filters in preamps
...outboard dynamic noise filters
...click and pop eliminators
...DBX records
...Compression of the audio program
...Audiophile LPs and 45 rpm recordings.
...Improved vinyl formulation
...Record cleaning machines and cleaning substances
...Extremely complex and expensive turntables and arms
I am sure I missed a few. All this effort was not expended for no purpose.
I have said that some people can "listen through" the noise, and of course I try to do this when I listen to my LPs. Perhaps there are other positive factors which make the noise acceptable. But don't say there is no noise (except in your own system). |
Rauliruegas...Then your remark about "inexperience audio people" means nothing. Why did you say it? |
Jfrech...Thanks for the kind offer but it probably is not practical. And not necessary, as I do have ample oportunity to hear good LP playback systems.
About the Ferrari, my Honda CRV will take it on the rutted dirt roads around here. And sending the engine back to Italy for overhaul is a drag. |
Rauliruegas, and Albertporter....Your suggestion that my disagreement with you regarding some aspects of LP technology stems from a lack of experience is foolish, because you have no way of knowing. I freely admit to now owning a playback system like Albert's, but if that were a prerequsite to have any opinion 99.9 percent of audiophiles, and all of the general public would be silenced. And don't give me the "it's the music" story. If that were all that was important a Bose waveradio would suffice. |
Gregm...As you say, it is signal-to-noise ratio that matters, not noise level per se. This is why surface noise is not a problem with most pop music that is recorded with very ittle dynamic range. Classical is another story.
Can you offer a list of cartridges that have separation specs over about 40 dB at 1000Hz, (and less at higher frequencies). |
Gregm...The most likely result of my current reevaluation of vinyl is that I go back to a MC pickup. Benz was the one I heard, and liked. I used to have Ortofons and Signet, which I also liked (except when the stylus needed replacement). Is your list about good sounding cartridges, or about separation? |
Gregm...A quick check of specs shows...
Ortofons run 25dB at 1 KHz and 15dB at 15KHz.
One model, Jubilee, is 27 and 20.
Clearaudio claims 30 dB for the Virtuoso MM and 35dB for the Sigma gold.
I believe that almost all cartridges are in this range, which I think is really no problem.
The Allaert MC1b claims 60 dB, and some other Allaert models claim 70dB. This is more than I thought to be possible. The spec comes with a warning that this performance depends on the arm. In other words, you might not actually achieve it. |
Albertporter...Of course not all sonic characteristics can be measured, but some can. I have heard it said, as a general statement, that vinyl playback has separation as good as digital. For your particular cartridge, to my surprise, that appears to be almost true, but it would be quite unwise (IMHO) to tell newcomers to vinyl that they can expect separation equal to digital. Or background noise. To obtain your cartridge you need to get on a six month waiting list, as well as having several grand to spend. Few guys will do this.
As I have said a number of times, I think that 25dB separation is good enough for music anyway, so what are we arguing about? I happen to think that vinyl playback can stand on its own merits without making technical claims that don't stand up to objective study. |
Albertporter...I think we are coming to an agreement! I should not have implied that ALL vinyl playback is noisy and inferior to digital. You should not have implied that ALL vinyl playback is quiet and superior to digital.
We agree that to achieve satisfactory results the user must spend a good deal of money and effort, not only on the playback equipment, but on the LPs and the equipment used for their care. Also, I recognize that extreme measures which few can justify, can achieve superb results.
The original poster, Sufentanil, has a problem with LP background noise, and his experience is more common than you would like to believe. I agree with his thought that perhaps CDs would be the practical solution. You also have a solution to Sufentanil's problem, but is it practical? That's up to him, and his bank account. |
Rauliruegas..."I know for sure that you are an inexperience audio people". Stupid remark. I go back to about 1953 with my own systems, and used others before that. I remember when high end meant that you used triangular wooden "needles" that you sharpened before play with a special clipper. If you have a valid point to make it is not necessary to use personal abuse. |
