What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?
I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
Not even analized the whole context/scenario but: Good, now we have posts with the rigth answers that proved and solved the lost-less information digital technology issue ones and for ever. ! Thank's for that, really useful for every one of us.
@dover do it a favor and don't make that " great " effort to hit me because you just can't your brain is not good enough for and then you will down in a depression. Is up to you.
R
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Dear @solypsa : Only to relate that digital is everywhere. Same wit medical instruments or robotics.
Btw, @clearthink certainly that mijos can or not in agreement with me and has his personal answer but his statement on Bernie I understand was in specific under that " feeling " that B. mentioned that as I said before at the end means only that just a " feeling " that solve nothing. Yes, in this thread context B. is wrong and what we were discussing is not about " feelling " but clear and precise evidences in favor of digital medium.
What BG said was a comment in that non-formal meeting thinking " loud " and maybe under the thread context the answer or comment by BG could be different. Mike Lavigne brougth BG here thinking that in some way those comments could supports the Mike point of view and was an unfortunated " kind of support " because did not helps for him.
Your ironic statement is something " stupid " for say the least, don’t you think?:
" Wow that is remarkable you know more than Bernie Grundman you must be in great demand by the record companies...." In what context/scenario that statement is valid?
R. R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : " we don’t all have to agree on what we hear. but it’s about that. " The dialogue about digital/analog started in this thread when you posted that your MUSIC recorded reference is a R2R Studer recorder and I posted that from some years to now the MUSIC reference is the digital alternative. I and other gentlemans posted an explained why is digital the reference beeen a lost-less signal information. You brougth here the Bernie " feelings " and your own opinion about that’s not under any question because that’s not the main matters/subject but the reference and why. Please think for a moment what I will try to explain but before that, @dover if you don’t like this thread is your privilege not to read it but it’s our privilege to post what we are posting and you can’t come here to tell us what or not what to do: period. :
from many years now all financial transactions in the world including corporation as Wall Street used and are using DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY and through the years that technology showed it works for any financial world corporation. Thank’s to that digital/computer technology the financial world works fantastic and billions of transactions are made it by lower time than a sg. with no error. LOST-LESS signal information.
Your car works under digital/computer technology, your cell phone, all world communications of any kind, Hospital and Medical centers works trusting in digital tools and items, Militar world Industry works thank’s to digital/computers, Awero Space Industry works thank’s to digital, automotive industry inside its robotic machines works thank’s to digital, your streaming listen sessions are los-less digital with no " mistakes " and you and your organism works/ with no errors by digital and you and we are alive thank’s to that " technology ". What you prefer is only an " accident " as is what any of us prefer but not Bernie or any one can prove that digital lost signal information and due to that lost-less characteristic is the recorder MUSIC reference not the Studer’s no matters what. It’s a trusty technology not like the cartridge riding a LP through a pivoted tonearm where all is full of un-accuracies and every time losting information even the cartridge can’t pick-up the 100% of the recorded signal information in those LP grooves and what I say 100%? I think that not even the 80%. Analog/LP main characteristic is that’s a non-accurated medium when digital is totally/100% accurated. Mike, you can be sure that your overall tonearm/cartridge/TT set up is not 100% accurated no matters what, the tonearm/cartridge alignment and set up parameters are totally non-accurated due that's a mechanical alternative down there. Analog is full of problems/nigthmare and even that I like it but this " I like it " is not the SUBJECT. Subjectivity has no " place " with because the issue is totally OBJECTIVE. There is no-return and the best of this new King is forth-coming yet.
Mike, take a look to Sony and if you want about audio you can go the Apogee site it’s interesting for every one of us: https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/products/ R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : " Bernie feels every digital step also degrades things compared to the original.........." " He feels " and that what’s means? other than a " feeling ".
" any manipulation degrades. digital plug in tools degrade. some recordings need fixing, and some artists want particular results that might not deliver the best sound to all listeners. " well, you need to add: " any manipulation to an analog signal ..." and that kind of manipulations as " some artist want particular results... " could be a signal degradation because the artist WANTS it, the " degradation " is made in PURPOSE and not at " random and certainly not developed by digital enviroment domain. Digital plug-in are " transparent " for the digital signal . If you want to change in anyway the digital signal you can do it through a DAW ( Digital Audio Workstation ) that makes the job in the digital domain and everyting is transparent for the digital signal we want to be modified, an example could be equalization of the original signal and that eq. proccess works totally in the digital domain. Digital can makes " MAGIC " that you or any one can detect or be aware of it, it’s that transparent. You have to think that all the very special effects in any movie picture is mading through computers that works in the digital domain but when you seen in the movie theather you detect nothing about and the same for the sound. But what if Bernie not just " feel " but can prove the digital signal degradation? Well in that hipotethical scenario we can ask: in a normal analog or digital recording proccess how many steps the signal microphones pick.up must pass in either proccess? and in the playback proccess. How many degradation steps in either native domain ? Any sound detected by our whole body ( not only ears ) is transmited by electric impulses in digital way for the brain can function as a transducer, I already posted in this thread about our ADC,
Again, I’m not talking on what I " prefer " but what is wrong, rigth or in between. You insist in what " we like, what each one prefers " and this is not the whole issue. I don’t know if you are " subjectivity " by convenience because what we like is a personal an unique privilege where no one can touch us. I hope you don’t but I can’t see yet signs of objectivity through your posts in this thread.
Btw, "" but feel digital can be exceptional when done simply, or a mess on some level when processed. "" Could be but not because digital per sé but because that " proccessed " was a choice by recording/producer gentlemans " mistakes ": they are the culprit not because digital. That " mess " it happens too with analog because those " mistakes " made it by those gentlemans or by the artist.
R.
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@atmasphere : Just as I posted: you are here againand I can see that you dig/rummage each single word in my posts but : do you know what?
Analog can't compete with digital for one simple reason: both are way different mediums under recording and playback proccess: WAY WAY DIFFERENT. The only point where both coincide is that both mediums makes some kind of " sound " but that's all. Even that digital is recorded in a tape what's in that tape is way way different: the digital signal is " immune " to all tape drawbacks where the analog is heavy degraded in that recording proccess and if we go to the playback proccess we can confirm that just can't compete: WAY WAY DIFFERENT proccess . You have a confusion/mix-up between " oranges and bananas ".
Please do it a favor your self and stop to dig/rummage my posts, obviously that you can following and is up to you,
R.
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Dear @mikelavigne : "" this stuff is not that complicated. but it does require commitment and effort. acquire great digital and analog sources, and great original/native media, then a great room and system to listen. listen and see what you prefer. ""
Sure is not complicated and agree that require commitment and effort and I can't tell you that I did and still doing just that. I don't give you other opinions but mine just from the dialogue began. My post to mijo was only to make an explanation about that " kidding " and all the other statements came from me and that's my opinion and the issue here is not about preferences because my preference is MUSIC always. Yes, we don't have all to agree an especially on what we hear. Mike it's really hard to be un-biased with this kind of discussions and that's why I try to understand you and that's why I poste what I posted twice to mijos.
Btw, rigth now that I mentioned I will listen to those Athena LP recordings that I do not in the last 4-5 years or maybe more.
Nothing like the MUSIC enjoyment. So enjoy it.
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : " Incomplete? Are you kidding me? " No, it’s not kidding you and this kind of " mix-up " comes when we have an objective " opinion " in front of a subjective " opinion ". It can’t " married " /blended in good " shape " . Almost all audiophiles are " biased " ( for whatever reasons ) in different levels to some kind of " path ". Normally are biased with what we are accustomed to listen almost just from when we born and several of us over our life , some way or the other, were listening to analog sources/live Music not digital.
Digital is an " intruder " in our analog audio world. Is something that in some ways even " disturbs " us at different levels and here in this thread we are confirming some of all those. Why an "intruse " or better yet. Why we don’t accept in full digital? Well I think that this is the result of all what we read just when CD begans through the magazines as Stereoppphile, TAS and the like where reviewers as M.Fremer, J.Atkinson, R,Harley, J.valin, REG, etc, etc , " satanize " the digital alternative all over the last 40 years and when a human been is reading/looking/be spoke trhough magazines/forums/recording manufacturers/audio item manufacturers too and the like that digital is way WRONG and we " listen " that 24 hours a day for 40 years that " simple " FACT is part of our audio life and it’s " sticked " deep in our brain conscious or inconscious. Remember you the Athena label LP recordings? well all those very good recordings ( I own it. ) came with a red rounded seal with a cross line in the back cover where we can read: digital. So digital was " forbidden " . Existed a very well " orchestrate " paid campaingn against digital. Nothing comes by free.
All those people that made it that way" dirty " job about and that still are doing it today, maybe thinking were doing a favor for the audiophiles, the only real fact is that all them are the culprit that the true high end could not growing-up faster in quality and quantity. The pity issue in all those is that almost all of us were and are followers of them and were satisfied with that " status quo " doing nothing for the audio/MUSIC world.
You posted too:
" Nothing at this date is more accurate than a 24/192 file in a home system. Why not DSD? None of the modern four channel digital processors I know of operate in DSD, always PCM. The digital program I use to play files converts DSD to PCM for playback and storage. No analog tape machine can compete for accuracy with a 24/192 file. This says nothing about perceived sound quality. I intentionally juggle the frequency response curve to suit my own taste, intentionally inaccurate. What Mike’s Studers are, are very cool machines, mechanical artwork. They are antiques ""
Well don’t say that to Fremer and all those gentlemans including atmasphe that always has " something " to tell why " why not digital or why is not so good ". Complete and incomplete? that’s the @mikelavigne road " bifurcation " but from his point of view it not only yet tell us what’s " compldete " and what’s " incomplete ", I mean what really means both words: what is he trying to says or explain with? and I think that Mike is not really sure about because trhough his statements he said digital is incomplete but at the same time he posted that digital " completeness " characteristic : his words not mines. He said that listen daily more or less 70% of digital recordings and is curious because I listen daily 70% to LPs/analog. Big difference and I think that when he has a dialogue on a digita vs analog with other persons he can’t try to be " unbiased " one way or the other. In his case through analog heavy bias.
I told several times: I like to listen MUSIC through my LPs but this fact does not impedes to talk with a non-biased analog " instint ". MUSIC develops always some kind of " emotions " in all of us but here I’m not talking about " those emotions " or what we like it but which is the " complete " alternative and which the " incomplete " alternative and WHY. What B.Grundman said is something we all know and knew by several years but solves nothing on the matters. Almost always we audiophiles are biased for " what we like " because that’s what the AHEE teached to us. That’s why today still exist tube electronics, SUTs, , etc, and the like and the audiophiles that still do not learned follow sticked " there ". Nothing wrong with me, any one of us makes our self choices but again that kind of market behavior makes more damage that good thing to our audio world.
R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : I was reading word by word of my posts referenced to you and in no one I posted nothing against or qquestioning you what you like it because it’s a personal opinion your opinion of what YOU like and no one can question it. Even my first post was a " congratulations " for the two new cartridges for the OP and even that I questioned rhe DaVa cartridge and explained the why’s ( btw, a DaVa owner posted that the SS power supply is better and that opinion goes against your friend that said tubes ps is better. ) about I gave its welcome to our high end community. I’m still looking else where for its specs with no luck yet. It’s weird that even Agoners in this thread not cared about especially with a " new kid of the ... ". I questioned the DS 45K eq. that seems a to high price added to the 15K very good cartridge design. The controversy with the Studer is that a controversy where some are in favor and others not at all. Then you posted:
" but ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step. "
That’s a radical opinion and obviously that exist other audiophiles as me that disagree with and this is a controversy too: some people in agreenment and some not at all.
Yes I know that you have not that kind of controversies in wbf but only " congraulations " and " thank’s " by your self. Well a different forum.
Even your radical statement, these are some statements posted by you all related to digital it self and in front to analog/LP:
""" there is an analog grainless liquidity, yet also a fine textural and timbral detail, that is ’un-digital-like’. it’s really quiet, yet the ambience in recordings that possess it is vinyl like. redbook files are really fine.
and has an overall top to bottom balance and completeness that i value highly.
Trio Arnold doing a 96/24 Beethoven TrIo (Op.9) on Quboz:
i am stunned at how digital in my room sounds, how great redbook files i’ve heard for 30 years have now come alive.
Wadax Reference dac and Reference server my experience is ’like’ vinyl. i get no sense that i’m not listening to good vinyl. i can listen all day to the Wadax without any listening fatigue, and melt into the musical experience.
A/B directly with good pressings where there is a gap between the 2. the vinyl is still more compelling and complete. """
I never read any where better praise to the CD/red book that what you stated here and I have the last 10 years or more posting the same about ( with out premium equipment as yours but a truly humble one. ) and like in this thread telling why digital is today reference and loss-less signal information media that means " complete ". All analog sources are and lost signal information and this means are " incomplete ". Yes, objective point of view.
But even you already used the complete word for digital in one of your posted statements.
This kind of controversies are the ones that helps all of us to improve to learn for the better and the best way for each one of us growing up always. So, thank’s to you for that, it does not matters what.
R. | ||
@atmasphere : Well I don’t remember exactly your words on the miono bass but I will look to my files and if I find out I will post. I think too that even has to be with the inverse RIAA eq.. Ican't remember
Anyway, the main issue is that LP comes with mono bass and today I can’t remember your exactly words on it but sooner or latter I will find out. Normally I don’t post something/issue just at random . To much threads and posts many of us read day after day.
R. | ||
@atmasphere : You was in recording studios from the 70’s and maybe you knew or meet J.Renner or S.Ricker both were involved in almost all the Telarc digital LP recordings, the former as the sound engineering and Stan at the mastering job. A few years ago FIM label made a re-issue of the 1812 where were as advisors S.Ricker and J.Blloomenthal. This one member of the Telar recording team as digital recording and editing job along that Jules was the co-designer of the Soundstream digital recorder. Obviously that I would like to know what all those elarc team members think about the analog tape vs digital recorders. Btw, even that the FIM re-issue comes in a 200grs. vinyl ( I think the original came in 120grs. vinyl. ) and that was mastered trhough an " ultra high definition 32-bit mastering and with D.Sax as mastering engineer differences in between the original LP and the re-issue is way difficult to really say: here is better than there, at least in my room/system. The original 1812 LP is part of my whole evaluation/comparison proccess tests so I really know it as the fingers of my hands. The comparison sessions tells me that the Telarc original recording team were truly excellent. If you don’t own both LPs try to buy it and listen to it, a fun and good experience. I'm sure that the experience could be a challenge even for the most demanding audiophiles as @mikelavigne and ceratinly a full challenge for any room/system speacially for the cartridges/tonearms.
Anyway, what I still can’t get on your statement: "" big difference between digital, tape ........ is cost, not sound. "" Yes, my poor knowledge level but how comes that if the digital signal recorded is immutable to all the tape drawbacks and compared vs an analog recorded signal that is affected/degraded for each one of those drawbacks differences is " not sound ", how comes?
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : My knowledge level on the recording proccess is really poor, so I can't technically understand some issues you posted. I remember that when I posted that a difference in digital recording for the better was that bass range can be recorded stereo due that digital has no limitation as analog that always needs the bass range mono and you posted that even that it could be that way normally digital comes in mono too due that the cost goes to high and in the other side engeeners are a little lazy to do it in the rigth way. I know for your posts that you are a little biased/oriented through LP instead digital. Obviously that you have your reasons but even that and even my recording knowledge about still it's not clear for me you last paragraph: "" the big difference between digital, tape and the mastering lathe is cost, not sound. ""
Ok, what if cost no object? still no quality differences between tape/analog and digital? If we take the frequency ranges in the bass range it's clear an advantage of digital recording against analog and is something that any one can be aware through playback in our home system.
Now, I don't posted that the Studer is a bs of machine but that from some time now ( last around 10 years. ) it's not any more the quality reference due the huge digital improvements. I still own several Telarc LPs that were recorded at the end of the 70's and early 80's. All were recorded with the PCM Soundstream ( pediestran if you like ) digital recorder and if you listen to some of those Telar's you be aware of its very high quality performance and after all those years those zeros and ones stay exactly the same and unaltered. Next I paste what the Telarc engeeners explained on each LP about digital recording and the Soundstream specs. In my point of view and inside all my knowledge limitations those words are still in " good shape " and not only that but improved everything against those 16 bits to today PCM 32/384 or 4X DSD. Analog can't compete against it and I don't have and even do not read yet any real/true evidence in favor of analog/tape vs digital: even human been has in the deep/internal ear an ADC because it's in digital way how the whole brain assimilates every kind of sound:
I repeat, cost no object because the issue is more important to define one s and for ever that digital today is the reference. It's not only your opinion, other audiophiles opinions or my opinion because it's not a matter of who is rith or wrong but where is the true.
What says your common sense? that the apple does not comes down the tree by gravity effects?
The overall subject could be controversial, what's not controversial is the reality behind those vintage analog recorder machines.
R. | ||
Dear @dogberry : Sorry that in some way or the other some of my posts " showed " that I want " lead " and that's not exactly my whole attitude but perhaps only the " way " I post but not my " meaning ". Btw, the ones that know said these talking of Studer:
" Studer is a Swiss manufacturer of professional audio equipment, founded in Zurich in 1948 by Willi Studer. It is known primarily for the design and manufacture of analog tape recorders and mixing consoles. Studer also produce other technology solutions, such as telephony management systems and radio broadcast studio equipment. Studer originated the consumer brand Revox, but sold the group to private investors in 1990. Studer's analog tape recorders are widely considered to be the best in world by Audio engineers due to their excellent reliability and sound quality. The company has built a variety of two-track recorder models throughout its history for stereo recording and mixing. ""
R.
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@mglik : I suggested too that own other tonearm as an alternative. Maybe here too you could find out a nice and new experiences with. R. | ||
Dear @dogberry : " And really, can anyone say they know what is best in anyone else's world? "
No one can because is something personal/subjective. What we all can is to give opinions/advise on some diffderent audio items in other audiophile room/system as alternatives bt at the end the system owner has the privilege to goes with its own decision. R. | ||
Dear @mglik : " But the Lino seems like it may be something very special? " That's for sure and especially because you already own that Atlas SL but it will does a good job with your Grado too and at his asking price could be a " bargain " for its high quality level performance.
It could be a different experience for you due what you own today.
R.
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Dear @terry9 : " into Raul’s error.."
that was a stupid " statement " just to hit some one. Bad for you.
Do you know which was/is the main difference between Newton and you? No, it's not that , it's only common sense.
Enjoy your self.
R. | ||
Dear @atmasphere @mikelavigne : I think that you that are an experienced gentleman are losting the overall R2 subject and seen not the forest but only one tree.
Look, when I posted on the Studer behavior I started my post saying :
"" There are several problems with R2R units.....""
Specs are only a " tree ", print-out, speed stability, quality of the magnetic tape, magnetic lost its characteristics over time and tapes could develops ( even from new. ) " drops ", it needs eq., adds noise to the signal and more important what’s recorded on the tape are not zeros and ones that are totally immunes to all those R2R drawbacks for analog signal along that studio digital recorder has different design oriented for digital.
In the other side and talking of that specs " tree " in those old times the Studer R2R mike owns were not designed for home use by audiophiles but to be used by recording studios and Studer was not the only R2R with the quality levels for that kind of job because were deep quality competition with true challenges for every R2R manufacture. So the specs Studer gaves to the recording studios were the best they achieved on those times to competes against other manufacturer machines. That was the overall context on that Studer issue. Ralph, I appreciated that this time you posted with a good attitude and not trying to hit me and that’s why I give my answer. Probably those mike’s Studer performs a little better but even that is not a today reference and cant compete in any room/system with what I posted: reference is the digital medium other than live MUSIC.
I gave evidences about as the D2D LP recordings against the same LP recorded in the same session trhough R2R: nigth and day difference and we have to remember the " today " MoFi controversy in his one step recordings.
Not even you can be against those kind of evidences and I know you are not. Obviously that stupid audiophiles are around all the audio world.
Btw, look the Nakamichi 1000 ZXL review and its measured specs ( I still own the 700 ZXL, way similar quality performance. ), really nice for a vintage cassette tape deck:
http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/nakamichi-1000zxl-321.html I would like to read the Studer Mike’s measurements. R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : " why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. "
Even that maybe the issue is that Agon forums are a little different specially vs the other where you are happy with and that issue is that here not all is about " applauses and praises " as there, even that in this thread twice I applause the DaVa new item because any new product ( no matters what. ) always is welcomed in the audio community.
What you posted tell me that is way dissapointed for you posting in Agon but in reality there is the other side of that bad experiences in this thread. Which could be that good side? that some of us like to go a little deeper not only in subjective terms but with objectivity too. Everything in the life has that side or exist its duality: woman-men, good-bad, nigth-day, fast-lower, up-down and so on and on.
Here some us showed you and other gentlemans the other side the side that no audio item owner likes to " hear " but that’s part of that audio item always.
So you don’t have to to have that kind of feelings and ask Darius for the cartridge specs. All in these forum and in all internet forums want to know about. So and as always your help and advise is welcomed for the audio community every where. Btw, Through the good recorded D2D LPs any one ( including you. ) can listen all the damage any R2R recorder makes with its quality sound degradation. """ i am talking about 30 years of analog based Lps and what is the reference for those? they were all tape sourced. """ That statement says what all we experienced and through those years experienced that analog alternative almost all of we are havy biased 100% in favor of it . You said, digital is " incomplete " but with no objective/facts that could confirm it and I know you can’t do it but not only you but no one can do it and if there is a gentleman that thinks it can do it then is Welcomed because each single day is a learning day. In the other side you neither say the facts that makes analog complete but I invite you to think in two proccess from where all LPs came: Recording and Playback. In both proccess the MUSIC signal that microphones pick-up pass through " thousands " of degradations steps till we can listen the sound through our speakers and what in reality are we all listening? a Complete experience as you said? certainly NOT but a huge degradaded signal. Where Digital is almost a direct signal sound due that both proccess are almost with out degradations, it’s a Complete experience at least against analog LPs that are " incomplete ". Don't you think?
R. | ||
Dear @mijostyn : " I’m sorry Mike but your Studers are a poor reference. " Well, it’s a reference till some levels depending what you want to test/compare and with what purpose. There are several problems with R2R units , one of the more significative is that in the past all audiophiles took as an audio reference the R2R to compare its quality level performance against other sources mainly analog but even digital too Yes, live MUSIC is the main reference and nothing can changes about but I can tell you that through my audio life other than live MUSIC I changed my comparison home system reference that I take as part of tests proccess. I followed @mikelavigne system and opinion for many years and he are really in focus because he almost always posted that the Studer A820.........exactly as in this thread he posted that twice. So he is sticking with that reference. Mike the following information is with all my respect to you as always and in NO single way I’m trying to dimish you or those beautiful Studer 820 but facts are just that facts.
For me and from some years now other than live MUSIC digital alternative is untouchable by any R2R tape or other analog source no matter what. I posted about at least time times in the last 10 years and the latest MoFi controversy only confirms it. That gentlemans as Mike still does not accepted that ( even that are extremely happy with the one step MoFi digital Lps and they know came from DSD master. ) is a " problem " for all them: we can’t live in the past. Everything is in movement and changing and I think we have at least try to learn about. Look, these are some specs of the Studer A820 that confirms in some ways what you posted and I said here:
- tape speed deviation: +,- 0.2% - tape slip: +,- 01% . Speed stability here is even more critical issue than in a TT because is the recorder and the information used to cut the LPs. W&F is +,- 0.03 % at 30" and 0.04% at 15" speeds. Frequency response +,- 2db ( that’s a swing of 4dbs ! ! ) at 30ips from 40hz to 22khz and at 15ips 30hz-20khz ( really limited frequency response. ) and obviously that at +,- 1db deviation FR is even worst.
All those are facts and those facts tell me that can’t be my reference against my today digital reference and I have to say that I’m an analog audiophile but mainly a MUSIC lover and I like to have almost always my foots in the ground. Audio " dreams " are not any more for me. No, I’m not against Mike ( or any one else. ) and he knows it. I appreciated him.
R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : I respect your opinion but disagree with. Look, as you I have long analog experiences and specially regarding cartridges as a whole. All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around to take it really seriously and buy it.
Come on Mike, I can't find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us? In the other side and in your main forum where you normall post every one is " happy " as you are and from where is the foundation of that happiness with all those explained facts around that design and please don't tell us: " it's what we like it ". Nothing wrong with that but explain nothing serious about. You posted with some kind of irony there: "" if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that.. "" Ironic or not it's very clear that you like that kind of distortions developed by the DaVa sample you own. My " shots " as you named are not diminish neither the designer or the cartridge, only trying to explain some facts that it stayss been facts till the manufacturer somewhere over the net gives his takes about.
I know @mijostyn and if he knew that the DaVa is something to own you can really be sure that him or even me already pull thr tiger to own it.
I already read what other owners posted in that other forum but down that forum are a lot of gentlemans that die for the 3012 tonearm no matters what and die for other audio products with no sense. Yes, several of them are really whealty but seems to me ( not you. ) that many of them only have $$$ and are followers of the in home sellers . I don't trust on the word of those gentlemans and you know that normally I trust in you and not because your $$$$ but your experience. R. | ||
Dear @mijostyn : "" be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience. "" The time almost always tell us that your statement is true.
The DaVa designer is a very enthusiastic gentleman with more enthusiasm than really deep knowledge levels in de overall cartridge operation subjects. For years he builded several cartridge prototypes of the Neumann cartridge, so the wrong path of the cantilever-less characteristic came from there when not only Neumann or Ikeda really were nota a wallop true success. That is a fact and Ikeda confirmed when just forgeret on the cantilever-less and started again with cantilever cartridge designs. Now, no one knows about till it try it or some one design it and listen to it, so the Ikeda " adventure " with was and is welcomed always as the Neumann one. I have to say that with my first hand experience with the Ikeda cantilever-less in my system I experienced that " wallop ", surprise and high enthusiam that I even said that design was " prodigious " at least. I owned 3 different Ikeda and the best experiences were through the REX9 paired with the Mission The Mechanic tonearm ( in those times I owned over 20 different tonearms, good top tonearms. Well, not all.) and after some time all the Ikeda samples just gone when I learned that that was a wrong path and now I don't think I'm ready to try it again. As you, "" I find it's design clashes with my own perception of physics. "" and common sense. Other that the manufacturer low knowledge level of low tracking abilities of his cartridge design that's a " heavy " penalty that no field coil principle can fix it there are other " mistakes " ( for me ) or more than mistakes questions: why 4 different power suplies? why an after market additional cartridge filter? why cactus? Always a " new kid in the...." is welcomed, especially the field coil principle that's what really moves my curiosity to listen the Audio Note due that I listened the normal I/O and still remember its very good quality level along the @larryi positive post with his experiences with this new field coil design that other than that is exactly the I/O cartridge. I don't know yet its price.
About your DS experiences good to know what you posted: "" However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. " As you now the strain gauge design is just like the DS an amplitude sense instead velocity but here is a big BUT: DS plays inside the rules in specific the RIAA inverse eq..and that's why we need a phono stage with RIAA to runs the DS. In the other side PL choosed to plays with his own " business man " rules and the cartridge design does not conforms with the RIAA and from there comes that " terrible " brigthness you experienced but several audiophiles love it.
R.
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Dear @lancelock and friends: I forgot to post a critical and important issue on those cartridge designs.
The optical DS design has a huge advantage over any other cartridge designs including the field coil and that advantage is that is and sense amplitude and not velocity as the other cartridges. Senses amplitude means lower distortions against any velocity normal cartridges as the ones we all know. @lancelock you was the only owner of DS cartridge that posted here and you own the top model that comes with diamond cantilever ( not that " scientific " cactus material in the DaVa. I would like to ask the designer if he knows which the " young Modulus " for that cactus choice material. I said this with " irony " because DaVa manufacturer speaks of science. ) and micro ridge stylus shape an even that I never had the opportunity to listen DS cartridges I’m with you with what you posted:
""" I just can’t believe it gets any better than this. Absolute joy to listen to. """ Congratulations to be an owner of it.
R. | ||
Dear @mijostyn and friends: " The first and most important is tracking ability..."
I could say that cartridge tracking ability is the first main " desired " operation characteristic.but for the cartridge can shows 90um its overall set up and tonearm makes a critical role down there.
Anyway with or with out what I said on cartridge tracking the cantilever-less designs are the worst ones in that regards. Not many audiophiles really take care the cartridge ability before pull the triger for. Better cartridge tracking abilities means not only lower tracking distortions but that we can get more MUSIC information from those " auwful " LP groove modulations. The different cartridge motor principle kind of designs are all good with its own trade-offs along the added manufacturer trade-offs and the DaVa is a good example when the designer choosed cantilever-less characteristic and not only that but over 3 different power supplies for the owner can tame the sound to his own targets, even in those power suplies with different choice of voltage and this makes a difference and the owner can choose in between. So an equalizer, then where the manufacturer left the field coil advantages?. eVEN SOME OWNERS ADDED AN EXTERNAL ADDITIONAL FILTER ( made by they self. ) APPROVED BY THE DESIGNER. In my case I don’t like other eq. that the necessary inverse RIAA eq.. Of course that the overall design always is a privilege of the designer/manufacturer and if we take a look for the DS optical design the principle looks really good with clear advantages over other principles but here too the owner needs a manufacturer equalizer that " mainly " works with the cartridge bass range response but the manufacturer in reality is not precise on what at the end makes that equalizer that comes with a price tag of 45K added to the cartridge 15K. Yes, 45K for two boxes, 3 transformers, millions of uf filtration and owner choice of bass range eq. selection to mate the customer targets.
What’s all about? because " professional " reviewers and audiophiles touted as in this thread both cartridges. Yes the decision is up to each one of us, things can’t be in other way but if I wanted an additional equalizer in my room/system certainly I will not do it through a cartridge but I will go for the best out there that can gives me many other good " things " and that unit comes from FM Acoustics. I remember that the first time that I posted of this audio product all analog lovers were " against " me but......... It’s a learning lecture the FM whole information and each one of us can imagine what can do for any room/system and obviously any top cartridge:
https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/harmonic-linearizers/fm-133-fm-233/
In the other side you are rigth too on the stylus quality that yes in the top designs are hand selected but the cantilever material is little more important because its direct tendency to develops additional resonances/vibrations in the cartridges . @jcarr once posted that and even said that he bougth boron for cantilevers because its high demand a low offer suppliers. It’s so important that he puts in its top cartridge models diamond dust all over the boron cantilevers to improve its stiffness. Diamond is the material with the higher Young Modulus value followed by boron.
Btw, is something " weird " that that OP expensive Grado top model came with an almost " ridiculous " stylus shape for that kind of $$$$ level cartridge.
@larryi , you are rigth too and that FET cartridge design you mentioned came from way many years I never listened but looks in paper as very good principle too. No, almost no one take care about the ART 1000 just for what @syntax posted: inexpensive cartridge for some one takes seriously even that’s a seriously and very good design but unfortunatelly this is the analog world where we aLL LIVE. Other good point is the one @tmasphere posted on those additional 2 wires for the field coil designs that yes stiff the tonearm and this is not a good " notice " for the owners even that all of them are truly satisfied and that the cartridge has a 6 months wait listing owners but the Formula One has one full year.
R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : I think that my misunderstood came from what you posted:
" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply " Than's for your last post where appeared not one but 3 different tube power suplies with no SS one.
Btw, " projects lots of energy and life. " : Obviously that exist different levels but those DaVa characteristics you named are shared by cantilever-less cartridge designs as the Ikeda REX9 and others. There is no doubt that cartridge field coil design means a " different " quality level than other cartridge design principles ( motor. ) but the DaVa comes with 2 different " principles ": catilever-less and field coil. How much for one and how much of that quality for the other. Yes, at the ends only is important its overall quality level but ??.... The field coil principle can't recovery what the DaVa design cantilever-less can't pick-up from the LP grooves due that it is not ( no one cantilever-less is. ) good tracker.
Taking in count those facts could be interesting that an Audio Note I/O LOMC owner that along owns the I/O field coil could chime here on it because both cartridges are the same but the generator variable.
R.
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Dear @mikelavigne : " whether you believe in a tubed power supply or a solid state power supply is not the issue here . " Well, you was who posted about before my post and that's why I still ask on that regards.
" (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) " Mike wht's the DaVa Refrence retail price? and @larryi and due that you already listen to it : do you know the price tag for the Audio Note? Thank's in advance for both of you.
R. | ||
Dear @lewm : You are rigth: only smooth DC. So, in the worst case has not to be a difference with that cartridge but @mikelavigne not yet share with us if that DaVa comes with the choice of both power supplies.
R. | ||
Dear @inna : Nothing can do it, the LP playing is a " nigthmare " but we like it.
Tape has its own problems too but in some way differents, nothing is perfect " but " digital.
R. | ||
Dear @larryi "" My experience with field coils is more in the way of speakers, and I have heard several systems with both a solid state and a tube power supply for the magnets. I was frankly shocked, and somewhat disappointed, that the tube power supply sounded considerably better. "" ASre you telling that the same field coil speakers that you listened came with both different power supply designs as an owner choice good alternative? I posted almost the same question to @mikelavigne about the DaVa cartridge Reference and now that I did a little research on the DaVa seems to me that comes with tube power supply only, noth both kind of power supply but ML is an owner a he knows better on that cartridge regards.
R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : I was not aware that the DaVa carrtridges are on sale where the buyers can select the kind of power supply they want: tube or the other design and maybe you did not have the opportunity to listed that cartridge with both manufacturer PS and followed that second hand feedbak from other owners that had the chance to listen both power supply with the DaVa Reference. Good, I will google the cartridge.
As I said a different cartridge design principle always is welcomed even if maybe I will not have the opportunity to listen it.
R.
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dAER @mikelavigne : "" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character . ""
I wonder how you know that other way that the manufacturer has both power supply kind of designs and if not then from where came your statement ? ! ? !. I can't remember if the DST is a field coil cartridge design and never listen it in my system but in other system and is a good carrtridge but not something to " die for ".
Different cartridge kind of designs have its own trade offs and in this thread @mglik prefered the Grado over a top LOMC cartridge.
Even that, your statement needs an explanation and certainly been appreciated but we all audiophiles because that is a new cartridge and a new audio experiences with.
Thank's in advance,
R.
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Dear @lalitk : DaVa Reference, something to consider down the road ". Well the field coil ( electro magnetically. ) cartridges is an example that not only audiophiles as us make our room/system choices along its trade-offs/compromises that are the " best " for each one of us but that manufacturers always do it.
Audio Note field coil cartridge comes with cantilever against the DaVa cantilever-less design but not only that DaVa choosed a tube power supply ( that has no sense to me. ) with all the " artefacts " surrounded tubes as some kind level of microphonics or development of some kind of noise/hum against the design Audio NOTE power supply in its cartridge that looks really good: Which cartridge performs better well it’s the same question of the OP in this thread: different trade-offs. Cantilever-less has " immediacy " in the kind of sound ( something as horn drivers. ) but with a penalty that’s that are not very good trackers and due to this fact can’t pick up all the grooves information. I owned the Ikeda cantilever-less model and that’s why I know that.
Anyway, a field coil cartridge design s welcomed. Is it better? only each owner can tell it. The cartridges looks the same but only difference at sigth are the 6 pins cartridge connectors instead the normal 4 output pins connectors.
Btw, Audio Note manufacture too field coil speaker drivers. R. | ||
@mglik : https://patents.google.com/patent/US2591996A/en
The reviewer on your link said:
""" MM/MI has always been superior texturally and always quieter, but has eluded manufacturers’ abilities to produce maximum definition. Not anymore. The brilliant genius John Grado has done it. ""
and before Grado that was made it by Pritchard owner of ADC and Sonus induced magnet cartridge designs and before that he designed for GE. The model I’m refering is his ADC 27 cartridge and even that I did not experienced yet exist the ADC 10E MK4 that other audiophile says is the best Pritchard design. Levi reviewer needs to learn something about or at least experienced the Pritchard designs before post that kind of statements. But as you analog has an emotional " weigth " and that’s why we all are here. Nothing wrong with that.
R. | ||
Dear @mglik : Congratulations for those both new cartridges you own. Your question could be controversial because any cartridge quality performance levels depends on with what kind of quality analog rig ( inlcuding phono stage. ) is surrounded and depends too of each cartridge owner skills for its accurated overall set up. Cartridges as yours or coming from VDH or Ortofon or Koetsu or the Etsuro or, or, or,... are the best for its owners but at the top cartridge models in reality I agree with @mattmiller : no best but a little different. Every one of us have our own and very specifics targets and priorities with MUSIC/sound reproduction.
Btw, maybe both of your cartridge could be best " serv " by a different tonearm and obviously a different better phonolinepreamp. At both sides you will experience better SQ with both cartridges that the one you are experienced rigth now.
"" To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. "" Well that per sé means almost nothing for your cartridges. Rigth now I have mounted a LOMC vintage cartridge made by Sumiko that perform exactly that way in that precise issue and not only that this Sumiko is really good and @dover that’s a " delicated " experienced audiophile knows a lot on it. In the other side, Grado was not the one with the first MC patented principle but Ortofon in 1948 way before Grado existed.
@lewm , you are wrong Nagaoka is not a MM design: https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/item/cat/record/ https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/product/diamond.html
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. | ||
@solypsa : Of course you can't maybe because you have not the experience levels or only because you are seller of a different cartridges. Who cares?, not me.
R. | ||
Dear @solypsa : The @reimarc tonearm effective mass is around 9 grs. ( with screws to hold the cartridge. ) and the around 18cu compliance of the ART 1000 along its 11grs. weigth puts the frequency resonance in between rigth on target to the ideal range of 8hz-12hz. Along that every AT cartridge is a truly good tracker and the ART 1000 design was " inspired " by the Victor MC L100@edgewear named and that I owned and both designs are similar with AT higher compliance than the Victor and with almost same cartridge weigth and I never had any tracking issue with the Victor.
Tell me why should be a problem with that carbon tonearm on tracking issues? If the ART 1000 is well mated with a choosed tonearm and in that specific regards then no problem at all.
R. | ||
Dear @mikelavigne : I posted to you way before the latest post:
" and I’m not telling I’m rigth and only will describe some " facts " that I found out .."
Kind regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. | ||
Dear @reimarc : The ART 1000 is an excellent selection. Audio Technica has over 60 years designing and building LOMC and MM cartridges, I own and owned almost all models from the humble AT95 to any top one but the ART 1000. No one AT cartridge I listened in my system and other systems never sounded bad and the top ones always great. The ART 1000 is almost a " jewel " and an a design achievement and very good tracker due to its around 18cu in compliance. Good and here what an owner posted somewhere about:
" The best sounding cartridge I have ever had purchased. I like it better then my Air-Tight PC-1 Signature and the Benz LP. Excellent price for a phono cartridge of this sound quality! "
That Air Tigth was manufactured by MSL that @mijostyn recomended. Btw, mijos the AT has 3 ohms impedance and a good candidate for you at a just ridiculous price against your other cartridge selections.
I'm sure that if the AT ART 1000 price tag will says 20K this cartridge will be at any top system but unfortunatelly its price is only 5K and those gentlemans just do not turn their eyes to " see " it, unfortunatelly for all of them. R. | ||
Dear @mijostyn : The sound that goes inside our ears is an analog signal that we can't listen because is analog and that's why is in the internal ears an ADC. Read again here:
With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. "" Those hair cells are the transducers, binary transducer and not zeros and ones. As you said our brain has no idea of those numbers but only the binary transduced information.
No one ( even scientific. ) knows for sure and in deep how our organism function. Medical specialist have an idea about founded in all the years in the University and day by day experiences. The in deep brain whole operation step by step till today is almost unknowed. The scientific say that the human been brain is knowed at no more of the 20% of its whole real operation. Any kind of live life in our planet but specialy the human been is almost " miraculous ". Think for a moment of a small muscle/pump named heart that is running ( as all other organs. ) and can do it for even over 100 years with out stopped not even by 2-3 minutes to rest and is a muscle. Which machine or item made it by the human beens could do it and with out maintenance services? it function by electricity and we don't have a cable but its wroks in wireless status.
R. | ||
Dear @mijostyn : In reality it’s not a LP come back. What exist is a LP recording manufacturers making huge money mainly with re-issues and yes exist people that for curiosity go inside the whole LP " mess ". Not really a come back with 100% analog recording proccess and that is their way of living, nothing wrong with that. Take advantage of those audiophiles that like to own every single kind of " new " re-issue of the MUSIC they like and that’s all. Maybe never will disappears due that exist millions of gentlemans around the world with huge LP collections, I don’t know what could be happens when all those kind of generation ( where some of us belongs. ) die. Today LP alternative for new people is really expensive to achieve a quality near digital today CDP that any one can buys for 400 bucks and the CD’s does not set you back 120 dollars . As I said: a " mess ". You are wrong, as a country we don’t hate any one. In all countries exist every kind of people but no we hate not any foreigner people only because is foreigner or from USA. Btw, remember that America is all our Continent that is a set of different countries and USA as México are part of them, you as me are Americans becaus ewe belongs to the American Continent even that I don't born in USA but México or other different country in this Continent. Btw, till today USA/México/Aregentina or Chile red wines can’t compete with the best French wines or Spain ones ( in all those named countries are very good wines but away from the untouchable French/Spain top ones. ). Of course that the best European red wines has a really high price tag but to really enjoy it we have to have an experienced " taste " about. It’s not only about money but knowledge level, just as audio home system reproduction: true knowledge level is the name of the game. R. | ||
Dear friends: Normally I don’t give answers to stupid posts. Anyway I would like to comment this:
this thread is about phono cartridges that are used to track LPs: Rigth?, the forum name is " Analog " not LPs: Rigth?, almost all the audiophiles that posted in this thread if not all has an analog rig that use to listen LPs: Rigth? all of us accepted that analog rig means: TT/tonearm/cartridge ( at least and some times + phono stage preamp). Rigth? when ML posted the word " complete " was in reference to listen LPs: Rigth?, here in Agon when any one of us speaks of analog is in reference to LPs: Rigth? In one of my last two posts any one can read:
"" Btw, normally when I talk of analog I’m reffering mainly to the LP alternative. ""
As a fact I almost never talk of tape in Agon but LPs, cartridges, tonearms, phono stages, turntables, tonearm/cartridge alignments, tonearm/cartridge parameters set up and the like. Here I was and am talking of the quality superiority of the digital alternative over the LP alternative.
" walk into a record store to know that isn’t true- if it were true they wouldn’t sell LPs! "
and of course that can’t compete vs digital alternative NO MATTERS WHAT.
In a wine store I can buy a California Red Wine and in the same store a Chateau Lafite but the California wine can’t compete against the higher quality Lafite wine ! ! ! ? ? ?
Silly, for say the least.
R. | ||
More related information about hearing/sound:
"" A crucial event in the hearing process is the transduction of mechanical stimuli into electrical signals by hair cells, the sensory receptors of the internal ear. Stimulation results in the rapid opening of ionic channels in the mechanically sensitive organelles of these cells, their hair bundles. These transduction channels, which are nonselectively permeable, are directly excited by hair-bundle displacement. """
""" Bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects. When speech signals were modulated into the ultrasonic range, listening to words resulted in the clear perception of the speech stimuli and not a sense of high-frequency vibration. """
""" There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz! James Boyk California Institute of Technology Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved. " Each musical instrument family — strings, winds, brass and percussion — has at least one member which produces energy to 40 kHz or above. Some of the spectra reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
Abstract
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Dear @mijostyn : " we all listen in analog. " Not really but it’s what we all always think about. Exist a lot of evidence that one way or the other our organism: brain/body " listen in " digital ". Thtat could be controversial too because goes against what we " learned " that in reality do not learned in formal way. Take a look to this first evidence where you can read: ( the link of how the ears works will be at the end of this post:):
"" this membrane is in contact with the cilia on the top of the hair cells. There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. and.....................................................
With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. ""
I posted in this thread that we listen through all our body: bones, skin, hair, etc, etc , etc ( that’s why we can " listen " very deep/low bass sensing its vibrations that are communicated to the brain by high speed electric impulses ( not goes in a row/continuous way. ) by neuro transmiters/nerves terminations that exist in our whole internal/external/body and obviously some information goes to the brain trhough our ears and goes in digital way. All our internal/external body/organs works through those high speed electric impulses. How is the communication inside the brain or how a neurologist specialist knows if something is wrong down there: normally through an encephalogram that measures the electrical activity of the brain showed in a graphic/diagram that was achieved by that digital electrical activity and same happens with our heart that works too by electrical impulses and that’s what a cardiologist looks through the chart coming from an electrocardiogram study.
There are more evidences that we don’t listen in analog but for me those is enough:
R. |
