I like some of lrsky's ideas, agree good music should reflect who we are, somehow is connected to our soul. But of course we all have different degrees in soul, roughly said. ..."bad music is annoying" Agree, what we claim as bad grates on our nerves. Though I'm strictly a classical listener, with some world folk interest (as is everyone here I'm sure), there are quite a few classical composers that I don't like and a few that I can't stand. As Lrsky said, its not a matter of hate, its that I'm totally indifferent, and hope never to hear a note from several on my strong dislike list.
We should all decide for ourselves what we are attracted to, that in some way relate us to the world we live in, conects us to something greater than ourselves. My 25 fav classical composers do that. Mozart is one. And I am not sure what Lrsky is saying about Mozart..."Think Mozart's work, and though completely disparate..." What are you saying?
Now among my 25 fav, Beethoven is not at all represented. The 4th sym, only via Bruno Walter is OK, but have no intentions of listening to it. The 3 overtures are also OK, but not in my cd collection. . Mahler is also another I have no interest at all.
I get my Mahler via Shostakovich and Schonberg's early works. In that respect I acknowledge Mahler. But as to his works, I'll pass , no thanks.
At the moment I am suggesting simular ideas over at Gramophone's classical forum. ..That is, should we blindly accept historical traditions, or is it better to first know the composers of the 20th century, after which we can decide which historical composers are meaningful to us. There's hardly anything in the 19th century classical that I find of interest.
"the beholder can be vastly over-rated.....the audience"...is the most important element.
Well that may have been true before the dawn of recorded medium, records, now cds. But I'm afraid its the individual that rules. What the group has established in a historical time reference, is now not so important. We now have a choice to hear at home what we want, and are not limited to the concert hall's offerings, as our previous generations were.
Its the individual that is of of highest importance. The group consciousness will always lag in development. They are the last to "get it".
Now as to modern pop culture, I discovered at least one song i love, heard it on KLSU radio here in Baton Rouge last week, purely luck. It was a Indie music type group here from BR, called Blessed Yes, a song called Trace, a real smash hit (60's brit expression).
btw the group lost in the MTVU's(MTV university) contest this week against 20 other college bands. The winner was obviously from california, student population capital of the US, and got the more votes. I heard a few songs from the winning group. Dull stuff. . Hated it....IMHO the wrong band got the win....and so it goes. The majority rules. I'm afraid. |
Tobias I 'll give a few of my top say, 10 favs. As the list after 10 represents not so much fav composers, as a few fav workd from the composer. IOW I only like a select few of Wagner's operas, Parsifal, Tristan And isolde, The Ring...and then even with those operas, only a very select few recordings. Can you see how this could lead to trouble among fervent classicphiles, and especially among Wagner fans. "you mean you don't like his opera, Flying Dutchman??? But WHY?" One should always have to explain.
Among all clasical composers of the past 300 yrs, i start at Vivaldi, though Corelli is of interest, there are few avaliable recordings, and the one to get is OOP. Should first mention, Folk music from the middleages , is pretty interesting at times. Thomas Tallis, but the recordings I like are OOP. I like a few from Bach, but not the dull Brandenburgs, way too conservative for me. , next is one mass from Haydn. Then I go to Mozart, most everything he wrote has interest ranging from some interest to profound. Then I go to Wagner;s 3 operas mention above. Wagner, the first modern composer. A few works from Grieg,, and a few operas from janacek, several of his works for chorus/orch.. Debussy a major fav, the next most important modern composer, after Wagner. Almost all of Ravel, a super favorite for me. Early Sibelius, pre 1905/sym #1 is OK. Syms 2-7 are of no interest to me.Moving onto Varese, most of second Viennese school, Schonberg, Berg, Webern. Richard Strauu has some excellent operas, select few, select few recordings. Karl Hartmann has some interesting syms. Shostakovich, most of his works. Almost all of Prokofiev. Almost all of Bartok. Some of Charles Ives works. Almost all of Vaughan Williams, select reccordings. Elliot carter, almost everything he wrote. I still have a fondness for some Rachmaninov. I see i missed Rodrigo's concerto's for guitar, select recording. I love Albeniz and also Granados solo piano.
Something from Chopin once in awhile, but not often.
Mussorgsky wrote a great first half in Boris, his Pictures at an Exhibition, with Ravel's orchestration ONLY, and only 1 or 2 recordings. The solo piano version is a bit weak.
Comming to the end of the 20th century, 2 very special composers for me are Allan Pettersson and Alfred Schnittke. btw Schnittke is equally important in music a sare his thoughts and ideas in the book, A Schnittke Reader, edited, interviewed by his close friend, Ivashkin.
I guess the foremention represent less than 1% of the major classical of the past 300 yrs. I'm not complaining. We all come from different backgrounds, and so our uniqueness will show through in our choices. As someone just wrote above, others too, its all about soul.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
btw please ck out a new Indie music group, a local group from Baton Rouge/LSU. Blessed Yes. Go to their web site and myspace site to hear their SMASH HIT (my choice of clurse) called Trace. This to me has soul. btw Blessed Yes did not win the MTV University contest. Which is another story.
After you hear Trace, post a note on my topic Blessed Yes. Be honest, if you don't like it, tell me so, if it needs work, tell me that also. I hear the few rought spots. But remember they are only 1 yr band.
Later..... |
Mrtennis, if all you heard since childhood is "BEETHOVEN IS GREAT" a thousnad X's. You really don't know if this is true or not, until FIRST you are old enough/experienced from hearing many other composers.
What age that is, depends on the individual. I knew from eraly days of classical transition, from R7R, that I had not much interest in Beethoven. Yet he sure was talked about quite alot. Still is in 2006.
Many of those Beethoven fans have not heard a note of some of my favorite late 20th century composers.
I'm tolerant of Beethoven, just not all the hype haloed around his shrine, by those with very limited experience in classical music.
This is what I find disturbing. Like everything now a days, sharp lines of division are being drawn. Now that i got a few issues off my chest, I can try to be more tolerant towards fans of certain composers. But then again free speech of ones opinions should also not be sensored.
Don't follow the crowd, say what you really feel. |
Rap is kinda like some sort of coded message that only a few can understand what all the lingo means. I guess they believe rap helps them to understand what the heck is going on in their world, helps that crowd to deal with current issues.
As does classical help me to deal with issues surrounding my life.
Over at gramophone I posted a topic last week: "how much of all classical music do you like?" I figured there are over 5000+ composers in the past 300 yrs, most of which do not have their scores in recorded mediums. Tulane has (had I should say, as I think flood waters from katrina flooded the basement of the library, where the music room is), the book was a encylopedia of sorts , composers past 300 yers.
I have 25 composers represented on my shelf, and have come pretty much an end of cd buying. I have found all the composers I think are interesting.
So thats only 25 composers out of a possible 100 majors, and another 200+ second tier, and then another 4K marginal composers. Thats like 1% of all classical represented on my shelf. I expect little additions, as I've completed my cd collection in classical just last month.
Some of the gramophone group didn't quite like my post.
Good to me means does the music/composer add any meaning to my life.
Not to say Brahms is bad music, just insignificant for me. Thus Brahms gets no shelf space.
How is this an insult to classical tradition?
Have I tarnished the Brahms image?
I got the feeling some european forum members wre a bit upset that an old european standard was under criticism.
As though I failed to pay proper respects to The Classical Tradition Shrines. |
Does society have the ears, the capacity to know just what is good/bad music?
Look at how long before Vincent Van Gogh was recognized as a ture genius of high art form.
I witness this same phenomenon in classical music. Some 20th century composers still have yet to be recognized for the superior genius they are.
It will take another 25 yrs+ to bring these composers to acknowledgment.
High genius is always far ahead of the slow poke masses. |
Lrsky, there is one composer in "classical form"(outdated term, as each composer is very different) that strikes me as one that many of you R&R/blues, maybe even jazz fans may find interesting. Alfred Schnittke. I'm not saying you will like his music, nut it surely is quite unique among all the composers of the 20th century. I have almost everything he wrote and would be difficult to put any of his works in a order of favs.
I guess if I could recommend one, it would be his Concerto Grosso4/Sym5. The work goes by that title, as it is at the same time, a concerto grossso and a sym. Jarvi/Gothenburg/BIS. It was my intro to Schnittke one night at Tulane's ML, 1 month before Katrina hit, After settling in Baton Rouge I made an all out effort to collect all Schnittke. Have not been dissapointed.
Maybe when some of you are ready to make atransition into classical, that might be a good place to start.
I also love Allan Pettersson quite alot. Syms 2-11,13-15.
Both late 20th century.
If you don't care for Schinntke's CG 4 and Pettersson's sym 7, there is no need to go further into either composer.
But don;t toss the cds , wait another 5 or so yrs and try em again. Maybe something will click.
I left R&R late 70's.
The classical music forum is going through some ever needed changes, however some are violently resisting these changes, in hopes of maintaining The Institution. |
Mrt, from what you say , seems foolish that some japenese investment group would pay something like $60M for a Van Gogh.
If its all subjective, then to some a Van Gogh is worthless, wouldn't pay a penny for one, yet to another its priceless.
As you say its all subjective.
Nice Day
:-) |
I recall yrs ago, a friend told me that Miami Sound machine, as Gloria Estafan 's group was called, that this group was going to be a big hit. At the time they only had a few songs out on spanish radio in Miami.
If anyone had seen Shakira in her early teens performing, the word was, "she's got talent and going big time", as she has. I happen to like Shakira's Dirty laundry cd. Few compare to this gal. Beats maddon's later stuff for sure.
Maddona is abit noisey, alot of show effects.
Recall Sinead O'Conner's song Nothing Compare To You. I thought what a lousey song this is...goes to the top of the charts. I now like the song, and can see how it went to the top.
I have a feeling/a hunch lets say, that Blessed Yes will make a success in some area of the diverse pop forum.
So as you see taste is not pure subjective, otherwise no one would agree on anything.
Depends on sociological, psychological factors what appeals to US, what WE feel repeled by.
US/WE, ie some group with a common link. |
What I don't like is intolerance for other folks opinions.
I have no issues with someome slamming and trashing my favorite composers. In fact its a good thing as it reveals some defense mechanism in support of their fav composers.
Example, Beethoven. Have no interest at all in Beethoven, except for a few works that I find acceptable, , but which I never listen to.
The Beethoven club then waits for me to begin showing praise for one of my favorites, then they open an attack.
Just like children.
Or they will open a new round of Beethoven threads so as to lift their god to his rightful status, above lesser compoers. I mean its so immature.
With my dislike for Beethoven, I've have now made myself the enemey. With consequences of being banned from the site. |
Hey Newbee, well yeah thats kinda how it went down. I mentioned the fact I've never had much of an interest in Beethoven and came back to haunt me. Now of course the forum members over at good music guide will deny that's how it went down, but underneath it all this was the main issue. The main core members were all devoted Beethoven fans and would not have such opinions on the board. They of course could not ban me at the moment but had to wait for another opportunity, they ganged up on me while I was "walking through the woods late one evening". Went something like that.
As to your bored with Bach, while I can see that may qualify for some/alot of Bach, there are a few pieces, with the PROPER RECORDING ARTISTS, that i happen to like. But as I hear it, Mozart was Bach's spiritual son, and thus I prefer more Mozart to Bach. Mozart is quite unique among all composers.
As to Berg, let me ask you if you like Schnoberg and webern? Also which recordings of Berg have you heard?
You see I'm in agreement with Schnittke that the artists/conductor are just as important as the composer in bringing forth a success. Whereas Stravinsky's opinion, as mentioned by Schnittke, felt conductors were not very important in the creative process.
I like Berg via certain select recordings.
Its Ok to not care much for Berg, provided you at least heard a few certain recordings that do justice to his scores.
Now as to Stravinsky, he's great for the Paris ballet with many yong parisian femme fatals dancing on stage, but on cd, I find nothing of interest. Hear it once, I "get it" no need for repeat.
Whereas Berg's works provides a lifetime of interest. I'm listening right now to Berg's Chamber Concerto/Boulez and co./Sony. Unreal.(also have the Hollinger/Chamber Orch of Europe/Teldec) You might thinks its aweful/opposite to your ideas of music. But do try to come back to it in 5 yrs or so, you may hear it differently.
I was into classical for 20 yrs before I made all my recent and best discoveries.
I matured on a psychological level and then heard music differently.
One composer led to another. But for me the recording artist is equal to the composer. Another belief that gets me into trouble on classical forums. They and I , just think differently. |
Ck out jaybo's comment on the thread "what to do with 1200 cds I do not need" made on 4-21. There Jaybo says, "what we collect defines who we are".
As I interpret Jaybo's nicely put comment, why keep music on our shelf that serves no purpose to our lives.
I'm getting just this point over at gramophone's forum, confronted with arguments from several members.
I mentioned that i have made a somewhat end to my search for new composer additions. I'm very happy with my 20 yr search for composers that reflect who I am.
Anything else will have to be heard at a concert, if ever.
The cds on our shelf reflect who we are.
I'm not saying that composers not rerepresented on my shelf is bad music, its just not important to me. Has no significance to my life.
The good/bad evaluation needs to be rephrased as to what is significant to us and what is superfluous.
What first began as an elimination of certain recordings I didn't need, many 2nd/3rd rate performances, the next step was to look for composers that could be eliminated.
There was not many to go, as i always had a good hunch as to what I liked and not. |
KidRock, now can anyone here say that is good music?
I mean really. Relects the times we live in. |
