I totally understand why the Reed Solomon reducing software, the hard-drive based transport, the flash memory, etc would produce a theoretically cleaner signal path. What I don't understand, at all, is the price! Why would these average-to-good build quality Memory players cost $10K.....even if the unique software value is worth $2-3k, the rest of the product is $2k at best (assuming 100% margins).
How do the dealers (audiooracle, etc.) out there create a value prop that holds up? I'd be interested to know. This hi-end cd market is fairly saturated and fairly soft. And the Memory Player has a garage-like website. It all adds up to an entry point that should be well under $10k....way under. No offense, cuz I'm excited to hear one...sounds like a great idea. |
To Audiooracle and all other Memory Player dealers/owners,
I don't think any of us who've been through the incredible resurgence of redbook audio quality (great new dacs and transports, hd servers, rippers, lossless audio) have an artificial bias against the Memory Player. But even folks like yourselves, when given little data and lots of hype (like the old Burwen Bobcat days) tended to assume something is amiss here. I mean, other than the proprietary software that supposedly removes poor sounding RS code issues, the remaining technology (ripping, playing back on flash, archiving) is easily obtainable via standard PC technology today, at a fraction of the $10k asking price. And usually these technology pieces have significant chatter and user experience to go along with them. The vaunted Memory Player has ,like, five owners, a few who wait on deck, and a couple of very good professional reviews which are now several months old. Period. Please don't treat us like were anything but uninformed. There's no derision here, just healthy (as in $10k) skepticism on value and long-term risk. |
Clement's review, although detailed when it comes to the cd sources and the overall sonics from each cd, is completely void of any information about what he paired this MP transport with! ? He makes no mention of the cables, amps, speakers...let alone the actual DAC he uses (very very important, everyone agree?). Furthermore, he even remarks about taking it on the road and putting it up against a Theta transport-dac combo, but no mention what he used, as if it were a "player" not a transport. "Resting side by side next to a high-end transport from Theta Digital using a very expensive digital to analogue converter, the Memory Player clearly outperformed studio house masters!". Also, later in the review he uses player and transport interchangeably, but never divulges his system, his DAC, etc. Finally, later, he says "Next up was a fully loaded Memory Player with its own 32-bit tube DAC and internal volume control going up against the $42,000 digital stack from Zanden Audio... This fully loaded Memory Player belonged to another writer who had invited me over to hear his rig. It was more coincidental than planned that at the same time, another audiophile with serious industry credentials wanted to hear this unit. In addition to having a front-end consisting of the Zanden transport and DAC, he also had the new German ASR amplifiers and the BIG NOLA reference loudspeakers.". Clearly Clement's MP was not the max'd out one with a tube DAC. So what DAC did he use earlier in the review.....and please don't say "it doesn't matter".
I like Mr. Perry's reviews, and I like Stereo Times. Hell, I THINK I like the MP....but....this review is as confusing and contains the same amount of sleight of hand as the rest of this whole Memory Player media coverage. I just don't understand why it needs to be so cloaked, and so confusing. Clement, did you fail tot ell us what the transport was connected to for a reason? Maybe that has something to do with the sound?? Or at least spell out what you used. Any reviewer worth his/her salt would level set a review, especially one that introduces a new concept and a new architecture. No one would let a reviewer write an article about the sound of a cartridge or arm without saying what table it was being used on, for God's sakes, or write up a glowing preamp review and fail to tell what the upstream and downstream signal path was taken through.
I the MP is going to be successful, even on a moderate level with a small niche of listeners, it needs to have a clear light shining on it. |
The Behold power amplifiers of Mr Perry each have 8 pairs of Analogue Devices DA converters (the AD1853 to be precise). I don't know if these are of-the-shelve or made to order specially for Behold. But, there you have it. Wonder how much it contributes to the experience of the MP... And they cost around $50k. My point exactly. If I told you to buy a car cuz I drove it along Hwy 1 in Big Sur country, or along the New England woods during a beautiful fall day...and proclaimed it "a beautiful ride, best I've ever had"...it doesn't tell you much about the car. Could it be a great car? Sure. Could be because of the scenery, or the gorgeous blonde in the passenger seat too. I have to assume that Clement's comments about the MP are in relation to other transports he's hooked to his ultra-expensive ultra-sophisticated Behold gear, but he's never said so in so may words. He's never even said what he hooks it up to, or with (balanced digtial, coax, etc.), or whether other users are experiencing synergy with this or that DAC. I guess time will tell. I'm excited for any new development that gives us a better, more real interpretation of the bits encoded on the millions of redbook cd's we have in our combined inventories. And any new discovery will undeniably spawn trickle-down technology, or competitive pressure that improves/expands the discovery and makes it more affordable at the same time. Hell, I can afford $10k now, but this early adopter value prop is still quite shaky IMO. |
If, as most of this forum is saying, the real value in the MP is its' software (the extraction/RUR/error code eliminating software, not the cataloging/GUI stuff) then I would think that Messrs Bischoff and Porzilli could make huge margins (that's what it's all about) and quicker headway by marketing the software only, combined with alliances to hardware/periphery companies. I mean, if it's really revolutionary and rips the cd to the point of elimninating all that is wrong with redbook, most music lovers will pay $300-500 for this, and they'll sell thousands. As a 30 yr veteran of the software industry (sales and mgmt) I marvel at the margins that can be gained by some upfront R&D (already done, evidently) and some cd stamping or downloading production sites. The ongoing R&D can be funded by a minimal upgrade charge and any profit taken from distributing some partner hardware. Then the big guys buy you out and you go sailing. |
FWIW, I didn't take Alex's post as anything but a proof statement that 32 bit DAC's were not available up until this announcement! he never said he was using them, he said he had tested a couple of samples, and that when it is finally released he WILL be using them. He finds it hard to believe that with the scarcity of this in-development chip (available only for samples, etc.) that the MP DAC would already be based on it. Nothing shill about it.
You guys need to relax..... |
07-14-07: Askat1988
They weren't talking about Alex. Read. ?? Uh, yes they were. And AudioOracle's apology/explanation followed. Please don't just jump in this thread and state "read"! It comes off way too self-righteous, and I know you didn't mean it to be. I agree that a shoot-out would be a great thing; not necessarily to humiliate anybody or any product, just to show the strengths of each of the products being questioned. Comparing top notch gear like the APL NWO 2.5, the MP player and the VRS system could really take this redbook revolution to the next level! Hell, maybe even a network player/Pace-car/I2S DAC too. Y'all can come to my house....I'll have all the free beer we'd need. |
Audio_tweakers,
Have you heard the Accustic Arts Dac Mk IV? if so, what is it about the MP (and what DAC was connected) that beat it? Thx
Ted |
I will reiterate this question one more time:
Why, oh why, doesn't ANYONE who has heard the MP player ever tell what the DAC was and what the other electronics were. I've never in my life heard someone talk about a transport like this, while sluffing off the DAC it was connected to. You wouldn;t do that for a table-arm-cartridge discussion ("The Avid blew the Nottingham away....oh yeah, it had $10k worth of arm and cartridge, the other had the stock Audio Technica stuff") The only evidience I have of a documented MP-DAC combo was Clement Perry's obvious MP-to-Behold DAC and associated equipment, which is not the best or most relevant scenario (in that the Behold boxes each costs greater than $50k). What the heck was the MP feeding at CES, at HE2007, etc? Why is this so tough? |
Scaena! and DGarretson,
Thanks. Soooo, the MP player DAC is indeed completed and has been evaluated/listened to? I guess I thought it was still in planning/development stages. Has anyone gotten a handle on what the DAC compares with (i.e does it hold up to the Behold and other DACs it's been wed to)? I'm just trying to understand what part of this reported sonic revelation is the MP transport/software and what part is the internal DAC or the very hi-end DACs it's been seen with. |
I've posted here more than once saying that Nova ought to be a software house, assuming RUR and (more importantly) the Reed-Solomon extraction methods are high value proprietary code. The rest of this solution is, frankly, hardware commodity stuff (no offense to anyone) that could be designed and built by any number of technically proficient enterprises. And therein lies the rub; the fact that the revolutionary software is installed in reportedly substandard medium-quality hardware, supported by a skeleton crew of developers and distributor(s), marketed through a poorly designed clearly-rushed website...all for the low price of $10,000+......that's a problem.
I would LOVE for Nova to succeed. It would push the envelope. |
I used the term "revolutionary" to give the benefit of the doubt. Supposedly their RUR, aside from the EAC-like " rip to it hurts" error rereading, strips bad-sounding Reed Solomon EC data off the disc, but nowhere is there proof that this is unique, beneficial or even part of the signal path. No a/b has been done, nothing.
I'm still not giving up that the Clement Perrys of the world weren't duped, and actually heard something "revolutionary" here. Why else would they report this (he says rhetorically)? |
I heard the Nova Physics in the Scaena speaker room at RMAF. Although I was not able to hear my own music (they ripped it for me but couldn't find it in the system the next day) the memory Player/ASR/Scaena system sounded quite good. I cannot compare it to anything else I heard becuase everything (room, treatment, equipment, music, etc.) were different. Unfair to compare. I also did not hear the VRS. I heard other great digital players, including the EAR Acute, the Modwright Transporter, the AMR and the Linn Klimx, and all sounded very nice in their own setups. Impossible to say that the Memory Player was better or worse. |
TBG, Feastrex where? In the Lamm room (Lotus)? Yeah, they sounded good, but I spent only a few min in there. I was due downstairs to meet a buddy. |
