What is meant exactly by the description 'more musical'?

A good "  joke ".

 

R.

@atmasphere: ​​​@cleeds is rigth and you are wrong. You need to read complete the link I posted and some of its references at the end of that link. You need to learn and yes I'm still learning and try to do it every single day.

 

@mahgister , enough with you . Btw,  the Brain neural structures are whom handle all our body that makes that any kind of stimulus, musical or not, involve the whole or part body.  The neural structure is in  command. You are wrong too.

 

R.

@mahgister  : First the OP is about musical and not musicality and seconddddddd you have a misunderstood  that I don't accept " psychoaoutics: what I said is that all is included and lives in the Amygdala of      all human beings through our life learning concious and inconcious and informed or uniformed.

 

R.

@atmasphere  : You insist on the same " technical " terms and yes volume is comething we learned and it's our taste who defines the kind of volume we like.

 

You just don't understand the whole explanations I posted or just don't want to understand but everything is already said.

 

Useless and futile to follow this non-fructifer dialogue and before I be less polite with you: bye, bye and Happy year-end Holidays and for the other gentlemans too.

 

R.

@atmasphere  : E= mc2 : inherited and learned at different levels.

Taste still is as I explainesd. It's my take and I don't read yet any argument that really " beats " it.

 

R.

@atmasphere   : Each one taste ( you can name it: flavor, color, " I like " or whatever. ) is as I already pointed out a result of each one of us life experiences inside what we were or are ssurrounded in each one of us different life stages. We don't live in a lonely island but the other way around we life full of other human beings during our life and we go to the kindergarden, school, high school, university, we know internet and have cel phone from we were child, we watch TV or Netfilx, we travel, go to the zoo, we swim in a pool but time to time we go to the sea, we know Dentist, a motocycle, F1 cars, mountains, trees, etc, etc, we attenedded to libraries, and talk with " thousand " of people during our life,  .

 

Maybe we never attended to a concert but even that we know what we like we know the kind of sounds that puts us in alert or that we don't like and the Amygdala is our guide.

 

Everuthing including hearing rules ( as you said. ) developed and continue developing our whole behavior.

 

Flavor, TASTE, I like it, is part of that whole human being behavior..

 

I already told that everything concious or not is part of our lifwe experiences and the great Amygdala..........!!!!!!

I name it TASTE and as I said you or any other gentleman can name it with different word but the genesis is exactly the same.

 

Do it you a favor in favor of this dialogue: stay away of all what technically you learned, stay out of Audio and try to look in a more universal way. I take it in this way and that's why I said : I don't care, life teach me all what I'm interested or not interested.

 

R.

@atmasphere   " During that " modeling " proccess human being does not cares about SPL or frequency range: we all learn .."

 

That modeling start even before we comes out to the sun ligth. SPL is something that just " happens " and that we learn rigth from the start in inconcious way and then we follow growing up and follow learning about even if no one tell us what means that SPL our ears goes the " modeling " proccess and been aware of different SPLs with out knowing this technically, same with frequency range. All those is only learning, our ears determine the different SPLs we can tolerate even with no explanation: is part of the orgabism capacities. We don't need to know about the term SPL to know which is the levels we can tolerate in different " scenarios ".

 

R.

@atmasphere  : All human beings bornwith similar but different organism " characteristics " that are in each one DNA and those " characteristics " include hearing perception.

Through the years human being goes changing day by day mental and physical according to what he is " exposed "/surrounded just from the begin.

All those " exposed " stimulus work in his organism as a sculptore-man that day by day is modulating all the organism in " thousands " of shapes. 

Through the years each one of us had/has a different learning paths at different levels that are critical in that whole modeling, including hearing perception characteristic and whole all organism intrisecal limitations .

During that " modeling " proccess human being does not cares about SPL or frequency range: we all learn with out taking care of ears frequency range or each one ears sensitivity.

All what we learned ( experiences, every kind/memories. ) and still learn during our life ( just from the begin ) and in the case of MUSIC reproduction are what determine what we like it the more, what we really don't like, what we like in lower way but that we like, etc, etc.

That " we like " involved all those learned experiences in those different paths we already " runned " and that's why we have not only a kind of " flavor " we like but " several " ones with different gradation and from there came each one of us TASTES that are not altered because we know the ears frequency range.

All what you know concious or inconcious/informed or uninformed help you to that " like " flavors gradation and it's that way because EVERYTHING already" lives " inside you thank's to what you " runned " in your specific life roads. Nothing it's at random and ceratinly taste neither. Our response to different stimulus has a way long " history "

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @atmasphere :  " But if there is something wrong (like distortion)  ".

Not necessary " wrong/ distortion " , our brain react mainly to our life experiences and our behavior to stimulus ( MUSIC reproduction ) result on several kind of those life experiences ( concious or inconcious ) emotions/memories.

All of us have different kind of overall life experiences that constitute our specific knowledge levels on specific different kind of stimulus.

Each one of us are accustom to different kind of beat in the MUSIC different COLOR this COLOR is the flavor of MUSIC we like it's each one of us TASTE.

So when during a test audio item at my place through my specific/unique test proccess the iten under test goes out of that COLOR/TASTE the first attemp of my brain is to react in negative way and then I need to follow testing for more time to look if my brain behavior could change because even that does not match with my taste this makes me to check out if I can improve " something " in my room/sistem.

 

I already posted in this thread that all that " picture " of phsyco-acoustics  and the like ( concious or inconcious ) it came/comes intrinsecally in our life experiences/memories. Our posts in this thread is a result to all those individual subjective experiences.

The next article is a wide explanation about and if you or any other gentleman read it you can read that the word " experiences/subjective is repeated a lot of times as the Amygdala and Cortex too. Very interesting:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8228195/#:~:text=The%20amygdala%20participates%20in%20the,of%20the%20fight%2Dor%2Dflight

 

Each one of us TASTE came/comes from " there " from that brain truly complex whole proccess.

 

R.

 

@mahgister : Thank’s appreciated but is not about perspective but a different issue ( please re-read my latests posts to you ) .

 

R.

@mahgister : "

i dont mention live music because at my age i had been at some live events multiple times ...

And the sound of a real piano is familiar to me for my children memory because we had one ... I used piano timbre and dynamic as a meter for tuning my room.."

 

Your answer to my question means to me that " that’s it " that I posted and that I was looking for because almost never you speak/post about live MUSIC that’s my reference on tests/comparisons and obviously is the most critical an important part of my taste.

 

In the other way I don’t like to talk with stupid people but with gentlemans as you.

 

R.

" Live music does not sound like a recording .."

 

Are you angry or only as always try to " hit " me with out success?

 

Where posted I that kind of statement in this dialogue with mahgs?

 

Well the world is full of stupid/bs things.

 

R.

That’s it and I think that’s useless to follow you in the overall subject.

 

Thank’s again, was interesting and remember that each human being is UNIQUE and what you like/taste could not like me or any other gentleman. Your unique road is your road as I have my unique path too as any one else.

R.

@mahgister  It’s curios that not only in your last post but in any other you don’t reffer to LIVE MUSIC. You post about experiments/tests/audiophile adjectives and the like but not live MUSIC. No pun intented.

 

All people, some conscious of it and other not, " know " about acoustic concepts some way or the other and at different knowledge levels designers or not reviewers or not. Every one know about " acoustic perception " ( example ) even if never read it about in so specific way as you.

 

" When acoustic of the room is relatively under your controls, inspired by experiments grounded in basic acoustics, you reach this minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold. "

 

That minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold has a " flavor " as all the experiemnets have a specific flavor and when we don’t like that flavor then we follow experimenting till arrive that threshold and flavor means TASTE even that you don’t like the word and even with all your explanations about.

 

Look, I was following this dialogue with you trying to discover something that I did not do it even that I arrived at least to that satisfaction threshold with no discover success that could be my fault.

For all those and with all respect I don’t need any following response by you about. I think you already shared very clar and with wider explanations your point. Thank’s for that but for me is enough to read more of the same.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @mahgister  : Which was your target and your sound /music reference that permits you be satisfied ? in other words: against what you already made evaluation/comparisons to be sure you are satisfied.

 

R.

No, it's not sarcasm and was not my intention. Sorry you took that way.

 

To each his own is the same way to say things for you and me. There is no attack in anyway and tha's not my attitude.

Taste or not taste ( ? ) you as me are satisfied and at the end it's what almost all of us are looking for with the MUSIC home reproduction.

 

R.

" I used acoustics concepts applied full time for more than one year ... Why? Because before i experimented my "taste" was completely uninformed and i did not know how to be satisfied by sound in my room with my system. "

 

""  i did not know how to be satisfied by sound in my room with my system. "

That explain almost everything about you as an audiophile .

 

One year ago your knowledge level on your " new toy " was very low and now you are satisfied: good.Now you are a " skilled " gentleman. Good, to each his own.

 

Same for me and as you I'm satisfied with the quality performance in my system.

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @mahgister  : " informed and uninformed biases. "

I understand your point about and by my comon sense tells me  that exist diffrent levels/gradation of informed/uninformed biases in all of us and in some ways some   psycho-acoustics concepts are inside that taste because I can't explain for my self how that should not be. Again exist gradation levels.

 

" 

any system at any price will sound at his OWN optimal level of S.Q. ...

This does not means that inferior design will sound better thaqn superior design ... This means that when all is set right  we reach and pass the minimal acoustic threshold of satisfaction,  "

 

Agree with.

 Your " gradation " level is different from mine and mine different for other gentlemans.

 

R.

 

I don’t want to open a new window in this thread because it’s useless and even futile and only want to tell that today is STILL TRUE .

 

Now could be of some interest for some of us to know for example why some one likes more the Firebird than the Berlioz Fantastique played by the London simphonic orchestra but the other way around two days after the first session all those by live measurements that at the end those bullet proof measurements explanation could be useless for the listener.

 

Anyway, open a new thread with the facts, examples measurements and the like on that specific issue.

 

R

Dear @fair : " yet there is still a remaining topic of the gear that musicians, recording engineers, mixing engineers, and mastering engineers use. "

As an audiophile and MUSIC lover I almost do not care about but anyway all what happens down there at the end comes in the listener tastes in what we like.

Well, at least that’s my take.

 

R.

Dear @fair : " Also, preferred most often listened to music genres, and even specific artists. " as with your friend mentioned.

Perhaps in those old days (n 1997 as Plinius. ) those kind of electronics behavior could happened but today electronics/audio items normally performs almost evenly it does not matters the genre of MUSIC or artist. A good design means that: evenly quality performance levels where MUSIC genre/artist is not an issue.

 

" yet it’s the differences that make them unique enough for a specific buyer to choose. "

" yet is heavily influenced by specific individual hearing system peculiarities, "

 

Key words on those statements: UNIQUE nad SPËCIFIC INDIVIDUAL,

 

From those words came what each one of us ( individual and unique ) like/taste.

As you said: " there are common qualities that have to be present in all of them " but the taste is totally specific and unique/individual to each one of us.

 

Now the TASTE word is fully charged ( conscious or not. ) at different levels in each one of us of what almost all posted in the thread as:  @mapman ​@hilde45 ​@mulveling ​@mahgister including me.

Designers/manufacturers are there too.

There is no objectivity over subjectivity but a blended " history " and exist several limitations at both sides.

Till today does not exist a precise measurements that can tell us ( bullet proof. ) why we like what we like and audio item specs alone can’t tell us if that audio item will match our taste till we tasted.

Not even by psycho-acoustics because neurologists and scientifics confirm that no one no human being knows in true and with facts not even the 25% of the human being operation brain and what surrounded it.

So science shows us answers totally incomplete because can’t advance over that 25% with almost useless conclusions. There is no knowledge science after that. Maybe in the future. The MUSIC therapies is an example because it function with some people and not with other similar persons.

The fully operation of the whole human being is truly unknow, we know maybe more from the study of Universe that our organism/brain.

Yes TASTE is all what we can imagine is charged.

 

R.

 

First step must be electrical/mechanical matching. Acoustical matchimg is another and different issue that mainly depends ( everything the same ) of what we like it/taste..

 

R.

@mahgister  : "  does not means that there is no acoustics concepts behind all these different choices. "

 

I never said " there is no acoustics concepts behind " and as a fact I " said " the other way around when I posted that agree with @mapman ​​​​​@hilde45 .

 

Btw, just think why you can't argue against ( inside MUSIC reproduction at home )

what other gentleman likes. Maybe you can say: " is wrong or way deaf " but these are no true arguments against that " I like " of that gentleman even if you don't like what he likes/taste.

R.

Btw, @mulveling  when I talk of " component matching " I refer to elictrical/mechanical matched.

 

R.

sorry but my finger error.

 

@mahgister :   " 

I dont doubt that most audiophiles plays with room acoustic in a way or in another ... I am not alone ...

But there is difference of level and control between putting panels on a wall and designing and distributing resonators in a room...."

 

Yes there are differences as how each one of us and at what level are " there " : so what?.  I'm satisfied with my room/system quality MUSIC reproduction and you are satisfied with yours as several other room/system owners Exist diffeent paths/roads to arrive Rome, that choosed " road " is each one privilege and you  and any one else CAN'T questioning it as we can't questioning what any one else " likes ". I respect you  but you are not the Bible in that regards or in any other about.

 

" Musicality which you claimed is only a subjective arbitrary taste..."

first I never mentioned " musicality " but " musical ", so please don't put words in my mouth. 

 

Here Cambridge Dictionary on the subject examples:

 

"In his view, musical talent refers to the capacity for musical performance, whereas musicality is the capacity for musical reception. "

 

in the other side:

 

" 

• Even with a load of electronic gadgetry, you still need some musical ability to write a successful song.
• It's being hyped as the musical event of the year.
• Some of the younger pop bands try to imitate their musical heroes from the past.
• The musical interludes don't really fit in with the rest of the play

 

No pun intented and remember that you as all of us are only a human being with different characteristics and different knowledge and ignorance levels and as any other of us you are not the Bible in any audio subjects.

R.

 

+1 @mulveling .

 

R.

@mahgister  :   " I prefer acoustics investigation and experiments..."

 

that statement seems to me as if you are the only audiophile that do that.

 

You can be sure that almost all of the gentlemans in this thread and over the audio world through our audio life already did it and do it what you posted.

Why almost all did it? , simple and obvious: is part of the room/system fine tunning that we are enjoying today. Endless fine tunning for many of us.

 

R.

@snapsc  : " Expensive " in audio means that " expensive " and nothing more and you like what you like, you like what is right for you.

 

R.

Dear @mahgister : I agree to disagree with you and I have to tell you that I have first hand experiences witrh the SS electronic design and when José and I was in the live design and choosing active/passive parts first step was reading the part manufacturers whole sheet and under which electrical conditions comes those part specs, second step was to make a measures by our self to mate those specs looking for " zero " tolerance/accurated ( MUSIC is accurate. ) and third step was listen it inside the board and " see " its good or bad relationship through the overall design voicing.

Other that all measurements on the audio item we made " hundreds " of voicing tests in our room/systems and in several other room/systems and the audio item was listened by many other audio/MUSIC friends.

José and I never said: " hey sounds " musical " don’t you think? " but we ask by our self first what we ( each one ) don’t like and why and after that what we like and from here think if we could find out how to improve that " don’t like ".

 

But what are behind that " voicing "? well it’s a mix of true objectivity along subjectivity where science is behind the objectivity and behind subjectivity full of first hand experiences achieved over our audio life listening to home reproduced MUSIC and live attended to listen MUSIC at near field and at normal position and even in " odd " positions.

Never our target , not even in the paper, was that our unit be " musical " but only that performed with top top quality level in any audio system and bullet proof against " deaf " gentlemans. At the end the target our target is to stay truer to the recording adding and losting almost " nothing " to the audio signal. The SS unit is accurated but not clinical bu emotionally engaging/it takes you. 

I think that from some years now that kind of target is the one in any audio item design and by any designer inside a market price point.

It’s not that if it’s " musical " but if it’s right. I have to say that overall my levels of tolerance at both frequency extremes is really low and no I have not golden ears and I know that as any one else I tolerate THD/IMD at higher levels that what I or we can imagine. Those 2 threads I mentioned confirm this.

Speaking of " golden ears " and several years ago Ortofon decided on porpose to tilt around + 1db-2db the high frequency, so it’s not that Ortofon can’t build a flat frequency cartridge no exist reasons to that tilt:

they made it several tests with its Golden Ear listeners panel with gentlemans that were instrument players, composers, audiophiles, MUSIC lovers, woman/man, etc. The test was to listen ( with different cartridge models ) the same cartridge model that comes with flat frequency and the same model with tilted HF and over the testing time the conclusion was that that Golden Ear ( as a fact 2 panels with different people. ) panel always prefered the cartridge with tilted HF. No one there ( Ortofon ). said nothing of more " musical " / less " musical ".

 

What you listen at your place it’s musical ? I can say no it’s not, over the years all modifications you did it in your room/system put you here because it’s what you like what it sounds right to you. In may case is exactly like that.

Can I be wrong? yes I can but this is what I learned through my audioMUSIC life.

 

R.

 

Another example any one could try is to listen say a sax alto or a trumpet at 2-3 meters where the player is playing at live event SPL's, no one can tolerate it by more than maybe 5-10 minutes or maybe less but with a violin at 1m. it's the same.

 

I think that we have to start " understanding " live MUSIC at near field listening and after that return home and try to " mimic " in our system what we listened then we will really know.

 

R.

Dear @dman777  : I agree in almost al@mapman ​​​​​@hilde45  already posted but for different reasons.

" Musical " is a wrong word used for years as an adjective for any audio item in a room/system and not only amps.

Why " wrong "? first because in reality says aolmost nothing about the audio item other that it's what the owner likes: his " taste " and each audiophile has different tastes. Yes 100% subjective.

In audio " musical " is not true/reral related to distortion levels, feedback, soundstage, odd harmonics and the like of the audio items.

Electronics today in the audio world are way different to the 60's designs specialy the SS units ( of course that gentlemans like atmasph still lives in the 60's. Today Is a myth that he likes to spread from several years now. Never mind.  ) where iover the years its active and passive parts way improved order of magnitudes and yes designers improved too.

The gentlemans that as me attend  at least one time each week to listen live MUSIC never talk ( example ) that the concert with the Firebird score was " musical " or smoother, or about the " nuances " or the venue etc etc.

Live MUSIC seated at near field is not smoot but even could be very agressive witgh brigthness or even harsness and all those is not about odd harmonics or clipping ( as with in the past electronics. Today designs comes with wide overload margin high headroom )  Any one of us can pprove what I'm telling here doing something simple: seat in a piano instrument ( top cover opened. ) and even with out  be a piano player hit with your rigth hand 4-5 different notes and you will know what I'm talking about, no way to say " smooth ": it does not exist seated at near field.

MUSIC has his natural brithness as its natural colors. Yes, if we are seated in the 20+ row things are different but things are that the recording microphones are not seated at the 30 row but at truly Near Field ". So from where comes in our system that " smoot " " nuances " " the venue ": it's what we want to " think " or bad audio item designs or bad pressings.

Soundstage is an audio word with almost no meaning because the sounstage is developed between the speakers and room not in the recording. same systems in different room develops different soundstage.

We audiophiles " invented " several words that are non adequated  and were invented due to each one of us ignorance levels.

I never in my audio life or MUSIC life talk of " musical ".

Subjectivity several times plays a role against each one of us because each one of us as human beens has way difference Tolerance levels to distortions: THD/IMD or SP or frequency deviations. Btw, discussions in the VIV tonearm and Dava cartridge ( analog forum ) threads confirm exactkly what I posted here.

Not for me but for the ones that like the word " musical " it's only taste and a word thatb even that is meaningless is a way trying to explain what each one of knowledge levels does not permit saying in precise way.

 

Such is life.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.