What does listening to a speaker really tell us?


Ok. I got lots of advice here from people telling me the only way to know if a speaker is right for me is to listen to it. I want a speaker that represents true fidelity. Now, I read lots of people talking about a speakers transparency. I'm assuming that they mean that the speaker does not "interpret" the original source signal in any way. But, how do they know? How does anyone know unless they were actually in the recording studio or performance hall? Isn't true that we can only comment on the RELATIVE color a speaker adds in reference to another speaker? This assumes of course that the upstream components are "perfect."
128x128pawlowski6132

Showing 7 responses by jax2

I'll add a few more questions to your query: What is "perfect"?
Why is a verbatim translation of an entirely subjective recording engineer's
idea of what a performance should be supposed to be a 'better' thing than
say, one that is "colored" by a component in a particular way?
Isn't all of it just an interpretation of what supposedly 'happened' in a given
space and time? And in that space and time would another person have
prefered to interpret it a different way? And why then would one of those
person's interpretations of the event be universally 'superior' to the other
person's interpretation? That idea is as ubsurd to me as saying one specific
component is "the best" there is. I submit to you that there is no
such thing as 'perfection', and there is no objective 'best' at any of this. It is
all entirely subjective. From the moment the energy leaves the vocal cords or
the instrument, it is interpretted in infinitely complex ways, and, in the case
of making a recording, there's some human being who has made an equally
infinitely complex set of decisions to interpret how that sound should be
presented judged by his ears and sense of hearing, and tastes and experience
which are as individual as his fingerprints. That in turn is tranformed
mechanically into some spinning plastic disk by yet another series of complex
electro-mechanical processes, all of which strive to some strange objective
interpretation of how they may be translated later on by the system of the
end-user. And onto all of that we add this little system of ours in our
listening rooms (an entirely new acoustic space), and have some kind of
warped expectations of some kind of objective, verbatim translation of the
original event as interpretted by joe shmo who you don't even know. And the
so-called "experts" refer to this as "high-fidelity".

I submit an alternate scenario by which to judge a system or a component
within a system: Does it grab you, engage you, get your toes to tapping,
raise the hairs on the back of your neck, allow you to listen to it for hours on
end and still keep you engaged and energized by the music? If it does those
things, that's really all I need. I don't need any reassurance that the reasons
it may, or may not do that is somebody's opinion about how much coloration
it may add to...well, to what really? To the engineers interpretation of an
event within a space as translated by electormechanical...blah, blah, blah.
And how can anyone possibly get into that engineers head and actually
experience whether or not succeeds in doing just that? Should we just ask
the engineer, and then, if they nod in approval do we then go away satisfied
that our system is "perfect"?! Does that speak at all to the
question of whether you, as an individual, actually like said verbatim
interpretation of the engineers intentions? What if you prefer a bit more
warmth, or the midrange to be a bit more forward? Should you seek out
different music then? It's all subjective. High fidelity is a sham if you take it
to be a generic, objective definition of what is "best" in audio
reproduction. It is like folks who have absolutely no connection with the
visual arts needing some interior designer to pick and choose what is "
good art" to decorate their home to demonstrate their superior taste
(which really isn't theirs at all). Keeeeerist, most of us have got two ears, and
a brain and a heart, and maybe even a soul...use'em for god's sake! You
don't need anyone else telling you what is best for you, nor do you need the
detailed analasys of machines to justify your perosnal choices! WAKE UP
PEOPLE! SEIZE THE DAY!

Marco
You got it Albert. Go out and get yourself a pair of Carpe Diem Acoustic
Orgasms and use those phased arrays of yours for kindling! You can thank
me later.

Marco
Onhwy61 said:
(snip)Let's not lose sight that there is an objective reality somewhere beyond the firing pleasure synapses in our brains.

As soon as you bring a human being into the picture it leaves the realms of "objectivity". It may fire some pleasure points in each of our brains, or it may not, and what each of us does with that is entirely unique. It comes down to the age-old question, "If a speaker is playing loudly in the forrest, and there is no one there to hear it and analyze it ad nauseum here on Audiogon, then did it really happen?"

furthermore, from the beginning of that same post...
If I understand them correctly some people are arguing that if a specific piece of equipment makes them feel good, then it must be good equipment. That's an absurd notion.(snip)


I don't think that's quite it. The point is more accurately that if a specific piece of equipment makes a specific person feel good, then it is indeed a "good" piece of equipment to that specific person. Period. End of fact. Nothing, and it bears repetition, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS to that person, especially someone else's opinion of what is "good". User AgonArseWipe loves his iChing Final Fortune DAC. Does that mean the Final Fortune is a "good" DAC? No, it just means AgonArseWipe experiences it that way. Is there one single DAC that's going to pleae AgonArseWipe, SolidStateMadness and SET4Ever? I very much doubt it, and if there is, that same DAC may not at all please Gotmoremoney! Lets say the iChing Final Fortune DAC has the most uncanny ability to positively, and without deviation, reproduce a musical performance verbatim through some remarkably synergistic system. Do you think we'd all like that reading all the responses above? Do you think it may matter at all to most people? What is absurd to me is the idea of a black and white world where good and bad are absolutes. So what is verbatim? Is that something measured by machines and plotted out on graphs and in databases of zeroes and ones? Where is the humanity in that?! Sorry, but there is no 'objective' where humans are concerned. If you and I witnessed the same event from close to the same position, we would likely tell entirely different stories of that event. We would perceive and experience that event in different ways. Could be subtley different, could be profoundly different. But it ain't likely going to be the same. Such is the basis for the much simplified demonstration of the very principle in the child's game, "Telephone" where one person whispers a phrase into anothers ear, and that phrase is to be passed verbatim through a large group of people till it gets to the end of the line. It is pretty rare that the phrase remains the same from beginning to end, yet supposedly the translation from individual to individual is verbatim.

The whole thing is just as subjective as anything else in life. Who's going to tell you what the "best" music is? Or the "best" food to eat? Well, I guess there are plenty of folks who are willing to tell you, but are you really going to listen to them? And if some group of geeks in Redmond, WA came up with a program that they'd been working on for the last decade that actually analyzed and quantified such things into zeroes and ones and sine waves and pie charts, and analyzed all of that to spit out just exactly which food does taste "the best", would that data mean anything beyond a novelty to you as an individual? But the machines told me so!?

Marco
This is the most anti-audiophile/high end statement I've ever read on Audiogon. If you really believe this statement, then a boombox can be equal to A. Porter's system (at least in some poor soul's mind).

Thank you! Actually, I really do like Audiophiles. They taste just like chicken! And yes, absolutely I do believe that there may be someone (perhaps even a few folks) out there who could give a tinker's cuss whether they listen to music on a boom box or Albert's sorry system (unless of course he's already picked up a pair of those Carpe Diem's I mentioned...in which case they would undoubtedly transform virtually any system to please everyone with two functional ears). I have met many very talented musicians who could care less about the system they listen to music on. Can they hear a difference? I'm pretty sure they can if pressed for an answer. Does it make them any happier or add any value to their life experience, well, if I am to take them at their word, evidently not. I believe them too!

LOL on the doubting son though! You'll have to excuse me as I run for cover from the tar and feather posse comin' my way!

Marco
For the folks who still may have leanings towards a reliance upon flat-earth science to dictate to them some kind of objective reality that is outside of themselves: Didn't you guys pay attention in your high school Quantum Physics class? We just watched the film, "What the Bleep do We Know?" last night and it brought to mind just exactly what I'm trying to say in my posts. Though it is pretty corny in its filmmaking and writing, it is a very worthy film for anyone to see because it does put the science of Quantum Physics / Quantum Mechanics on a very basic and easy to understand level, and certainly one that connects with each and every one of us (pun intended). One of the fundamental ideas presented is the tremendous powers of the human mind to create/alter our own reality. The film just recently came out on DVD after a long run in theatres. Anyone who's interested in life should go out and rent it. In spite of being corny I bet it will hold your interest start to finish.

Marco
Tonyptony - Hope you've tossed your underwear after that concert. Those stains are hard to get out.

Good post. One point I'd differ on: I don't think all of us are necessarily interested in the hyper-detail you describe. It may actually may bother/distract some folks. It is a hallmark of SS components, but oftimes is lost or softened in the case of tube amplification, yet for some of us the merits of tubes amplification is more important and far outweigh hearing those kinds of details. True, you cannot always hear those kinds of details in a concert hall. The illusion I think folks are striving for in those cases where they are wowed by such things, is that of performers being right there in your living room, and not so much the experience of being in the eighth row of a concert hall.

Marco
If given the choice, I'd really rather not pee in my pants, either at home, or in
a public venue. Is there a way to have a great system and avoid this? I have,
thus far, managed not to pee in my pants when listening to any of the gear
I've owned...does that mean my systems are crap?! I haven't crapped my
pants either...what does it say about a performance if you do that? Perhaps
great performances and great systems ought to come with a supply of
Depends™.

Marco