What do you do when nothing seems to get LP clean?

I've posted before about the apparently irreversible damage and residue left behind by my tap water, which often contains high amounts of manganese oxides. No amount of cleaning with various high quality record cleaning products, rinsing with ultrapure water and vacuuming with an $1,800 Loricraft has been able to get those records silent again. Use tap water at your own risk. For some of us it causes problems that are better avoided. The same is true of various household detergents, as PF so ably explained.

I've just received Paul's AIVS solutions. I've only cleaned two records so far but the results are positive. One that was still crackly after two RRL cycles is now virtually silent. One record that was silent still is, :-), and the noise floor may be lower. (I say "may be" because we're in the middle of testing a new cartridge. It can be hard to seperate one thing from another.)

My AIVS jury's not in yet but the polling to date is certainly leaning toward a favorable vote.

I did say "may"! :-)

Until this cartridge breaks in any subtle judgements like that will necessarily be hedged, second-guessed and highly suspect. Maybe doubtful too!

Ignoring 4yanx's concerns or joking about them will not make the issues he raised go away. He may have come on a tad strong but let's be honest, his questions have never been answered. What other motive than concern for the safety and longevity of everyone's vinyl do you think he has? Here are my (incredibly long-winded) thoughts...

I. What scenarios have been hypothesized?

First, it has been suggested that in the 1-5 minutes these enzymes are on the record they could chemically alter certain plasticizers in the vinyl. If that happened, removing or deactivating the remaining enzymes would not undo that effect.

The additional possibility of incomplete removal or deactivation of the enzymes also exists, though this may be a lesser concern. Measures that should reduce this risk are easy to devise.

II. What effects would result from said de-plasticizing?

Despite Dopogue's little joke, one would not expect to see a record crumble into dust in one's fingertips. Removing the plasticizers from vinyl would - this non-chemist presumes - simply make the vinyl less plastic. Nothing more, nothing less. A one-word synonym for "less plastic" is "brittle".

III. How would a more brittle record react during play?

In this scenario, damage would occur due to the record's being physically played by a moving stylus. Multiple plays might be necessary to affect the damage.

Plastic deformation of the groove wall in response to stylus pressures would not occur so readily. Plastic return after deformation would not occur so readily or so completely. Instead, the vinyl would have a greater tendency to shatter and chip, or to remain permanently deformed.

We are discussing microscopic or molecular sized events. No one has suggested that a record will crack in half at the drop of a stylus. Presumably the most vulnerable groove wall shapes would be the most easily damaged.

IV. Where would this damage occur and how would it sound?

The most vulnerable groove wall shapes would be modulations of short duration and high amplitude. A tall, skinny guy like me is more easily fractured than a short, non-skinny guy like - oh - most of you I suppose. ;-) Dynamic HF sounds on inner grooves would be the most vulnerable, since they are physically thinner in the linear direction (ie, less mass to resist stylus pressure) and have faster rise times (so more abrupt stylus transitions).

Eventually the record might begin to sound like it had been played by a mistracking stylus with VTF set too low, ie, HF crackling or static sounds on dynamic peaks and/or harshness on sounds like loud cymbal hits and suchlike. This might take months or years to develop, but if it did the inherent brittleness of the de-plasticized vinyl would make the situation progressively worse with each play.

VI. Can this hypothesis be proved or disproved?

Probably, though not by me. An organic chemist could verify the core concern, that the enzymes used in AIVS solutions do or could interact with the plasticizers used in certain vinyl compounds. An engineering team could devise a stress testing procedure involving, say, intensive AIVS exposure followed by multiple plays. Of course they'd have to control with non-AIVS treated records played an equal number of times on the same equipment, with periodic and comparative measurements of damage between the treated and non-treated records.

VII. What should we do in the meantime?

I've only used the AIVS solutions on a couple of records so far, records that had refused to clean up satisfactorily with other means. The results were good, very good, but until the above hypothesis is convincingly disproved, I am reluctant to take unnecessary risks.

If the AIVS enzyme solution must be used, a complete vacuuming-to-dry followed by the recommended alchohol solution may remove or kill any remaining enzymes. For additional safety, we follow that with both RRL SDC/vac and SVW/vac cycles. This has the additional benefit of diluting any remaining alchohol for vacuum removal. Alchohol is also believed to present a risk for some vinyl plasicizers.

AIVS has been effective in some cases where the demonstrably safer solutions from RRL were not, but pending a convincing demonstration of its long-term safety AIVS will remain a cleaner of secondary resort, not my primary solution. I will use it when I have to, not because I want to.

This message has been approved by Moki and Neko, our two Ocicats.

Hey, no number V.

Anybody want me to write some more? :-)

I quite agree with Lugnut when he asks, "what do you have to lose with an otherwise unplayable record?" What indeed? The kind of record Stew described is exactly what I'd use AIVS on.

As far as Buggtussel/Vinyl-Zyme goes, I'm not sure it does that great a job and it may leave a sonic signature. I've only used it once or twice but those are my recollections. I've got some moldy and getting moldier LPs in a box in the garage. Good candidates for a Buggtussel vs. AIVS shootout. My money's on the AIVS.

Wildoats,

Please do not think our discussions about the safety of various cleaning solutions was in any sense an endorsement of using tap water. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm one who expressed certain concerns about the long term impact on vinyl of enzymes and other ingredients in Paul Frumkin's AIVS solutions.

Mr. Kidknow addressed the enzyme related concerns quite effectively. My remaining concerns are at a pretty low level, so I'm pretty happy using AIVS on any record that doesn't clean up completely using RRL.

As far as tap water goes, dozens of audiophiles plus several water industry and chemical industry professionals have warned against using it. I hear the problems it causes. The professionals have explained why it causes those problems. Any residual effects which may or may not result from the use of those "exotic/expensive" record cleaners are dwarfed by the immediate and long term damage from using tap water of unpredictable composition. The fact that you choose to drink it is of coure irrelevant.

You can choose to ignore all that evidence of course. They're your records and you can do with them as you please.

You've never tried any record cleaning solutions, nor even vacuuming, so your decision does not appear particularly rational. You've made no meaningful comparisons, so rejecting the possibly inconvenient or more costly advice of those who have just reads like a bit of wishful thinking.