Our prototypes can double power into 2 ohms and we’re not even trying to make it do that. It comes with the territory.
+10 atmasphere for putting that one to rest.
Nothings been put to rest, let’s see the independant test or even his own, that show the rms wattage doubling just before clipping (same distortion) with all three 8, 4, and 2ohm loads, then I’ll eat my words, and congratulate you on doing something that other Class-D’s can’t. I’ve asked the same from Merrill twice now and got no answer. And btw, I’ve never claimed the new GaN Technoglogy could drive these speakers properly and double at all 8 to 4 to 2ohms loads either, they just sound better than the old technology, but I wouldn’t recommend them here either. So dsper find yourself a brute linear amp/s with BJT (bi-polar) output stage, with high bias Class-A used somewhere to get the best from your highly regarded speakers. Do not get sucked into by these Class-D spruikers because you won’t get the best from your speakers. Or (I wouldn’t) sell your speakers and get something easier to drive that doesn’t reach down to sub 2ohm loads in the frequency range, then you can by a GaN based Class-D which will sound very good. Cheers George |
tell us which proven amps specifically you are recommending dsper consider buying? As I posted just ones that can almost double their clipping wattage from 8 to 4 to 2ohms. Even the ML2 monoblocks at only 25w into 8ohms will do it, but not at party levels, because they can double down to 200w at 1ohm. All we have here are a few manufacturers spruiking their new or yet to be released Class-D amps without any shame, saying they "can handle" the 2ohm load, making out they can drive this speaker to it’s best in the bass. Without presenting any measured proof of their claims, that they can almost double their clipping wattage from 8 to 4 to 2ohms. |
There's no mention of power doubling down all the way down to 2 ohms but an amp that is completely indifferent to actual speaker impedance variations seems promising, right?
That's because it can't, here is the a snippet from the manufacturer's data sheet, which you can take with a grain of salt normally, independant would be even more revealing usually. As you can see at 1% distortion!! the 2ohm watts didn't double at all from 4ohm, the 8ohm to 4ohm came close to doubling though. And that little 1 next to 450w said went into current limiting on 2ohm. https://ibb.co/YcQ8xV7Cheers George |
They will drive 2 ohm speakers with ease and aplomb all with a very satisfying sound quality. Looks like there’s still no takers willing to put it on the line, and post up the 8ohm, 4ohm, 2ohm wattage measurements just before clipping, to see if they are "almost" doubling the wattage for each halving of load, so to prove if their amp/s are going to drive these types of speakers close to their best, not just "satisfactorily"! Cheers George |
last thing Colin will want to do is sell an amp that turns out to be useless!
I never insinuated Class-d's would be "useless", I said Class-D's into these types of speaker loads won't get the very best out of them, end of story. |
Kudos to Joseph Audio for going the other way, and actually adding crossover components That’s just adding series resistance to the perceived load to make it look higher to the amps output stage so it doesn’t complain, and what that does is lower the damping factor and raise the output impedance as seen by the amp You get a similar effect by using a ZERO output transformer with amps that aren’t right, and we all know know that is just a band aid fix, better off having the right amp to start with. |
I’m not going to get further involved as, for me, hi-fi is about the music more than the equipment although the latter isn’t without interest. Now that reeks of a copout.
I also don’t pretend to have the level of knowledge evidently demonstrated by numerous contributors to these forums.
Yet your not willing to take it onboard when it's presented to you in simple terms that anyone can understand. |
Then why did you say "useless" Of course it will work, class-D just won’t get the best from these speakers especially in the bass, and some maybe happy with that not knowing any better. But I think if anyone had a speaker that was regarded as Stereophile "Class A" in the "full range" category, and one of Thiel’s all time master pieces, you would like to get the best out of it. Stereophile JA " All in all, the CS5 is both the most thoroughly worked-out speaker design I have ever come across and perhaps the best-measuring loudspeaker I have yet experienced." "
The Manley 500s, which I held off hooking up for a long time, were, as nearly as I could determine, simply unable to deal with the CS5's cruel 2 ohm impedance at the low end." The Manly 500 watt monoblocks https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--i_Cjxmnb--/f_auto,t_supersize/v1552409073/zucn7la3dmcwphn2... |
I have a Classe Class D Sigma Amp 2 driving Wilson's which I am told dip down to 2 ohms. They sound GREAT.
Not saying they don't, but if you have Wilsons that go to 2ohms (your not saying what ones) then your not hearing them at the their best. And you maybe happy with that, because you don't know better. Cheers George |
I'd say to the OP, contact Nord directly and run your thoughts by them. I'm pretty sure the last thing Colin will want to do is sell an amp that turns out to be useless!
Now your twisting things by saying "useless". Of course it will "work" and he will say so, but will it get the very best out of the speakers?, DEFINITELY NOT! especially in the bass where they are a pig of a load. |
Anyone know why Thiel designed such hard to drive speakers
Not just Thiel, there's many others that strive for perfection and they're usually the most expensive. Xovers/drivers ect, are complicated to get everything to operate in the most linear function and best specifications without having many compromises, that most efficient speakers tend to over look for the sake of efficiency. That's why you need great amps usually with great speakers otherwise you don't get what's the speakers capable of giving you, if not you compromise the speakers performance. Cheers George |
And my IceEdge modules And there is is! the plug yet again.
1200 watts into 4 ohms and 1000watts into 2ohms
And there it is, s***'s itself, can't deliver into 2ohms |
You guys are just p***ing against the wind quoting big watts, and not quoting the wattage for each halving of impedance at 8, 4, and 2ohms
It’s not about the big watts, Class-D P.A. amps like Crown ect can do that. It’s about the amp being able to come close to doubling it wattage for every halving of impeadance 8, 4, and 2ohms!
The classic massive Mark Levinson ML2 mono blocks at only 25w into 8ohms will sound better into into these speakers than any 10,000w Class-D, because it can double it’s 8ohm wattage all the way down to 1ohm ( 25w 50w 100w 200w). Which means it can "DRIVE" these speakers
Granted it won’t do party levels because after all it’s still only 25w at 8ohms , but it will p**s all over your ice power class-d for sound quality, into these types of speakers.
Cheers George |
The reason you are putting **** on this type of speaker, is that class-d won't drive them to their maximum sound quality. These types of speakers are engineered to be far closer to having ideal test mearsurements and sound perfection than easy to drive speakers, that are far more comprimised.
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Speakers like these Thiel CS5's, their bigger bother the CS7's, all Wilson Watt/Puppy, Alexia's mkI an mkII, also the Alex, Max ect ect ect and many other brands, have sound to behold when "driven" with amps that can do current, that can keep doubling the full output wattage for each halving of impeadance loading, and to say this type of speaker doesn't make sense, shows high degree of ignorance, bad hearing or never heard them "driven" properly.
Cheers George |
Yeah your speakers are one of the greats but need a equally great amp to do them justice, especially in the bass.
Those here that say x class-d can, can not show independent test resuts that show the 8ohm wattage doubling to 4ohms and then the most important one almost doubling again from 4ohms down to 2ohms.
This is the true test to see if an amp is able to "drive" properly into 2ohms and in your case .5ohms, and not just make some noise into it.
DESPER a pair of John Curl designed Parasound Halo JC1 monoblocks will do the job nicely, and not cost much used.
Cheers George |
You’ve got one of the greats in those Thiel CS5’s dsper, but are seriously hard to drive.
The OP has asked which Class-D can "DRIVE" a 2ohm load, not one that won’t occillate or blow up into a 2ohm load, and not be able to drive it fully.
I’ve seen no Class-D independently tested, be able to come close to doubling it’s 4ohm wattage when presented with 2ohms, and remaining stable and comfortable doing so.
This is a true test of being a great amp that can handle and "DRIVE" speaker loads such as Wilsons ect can present down to below 1ohm, including your Thiel CS5’s, they can go down to .5ohm at 20hz and remain at 2ohms still at 50hz!, and are still under 3ohms all the way up to 200hz!!!
None of the Class-D’s mentioned here will do these great speakers justice at all, the ones suggesting so are all tripping!.
Cheers George. |
whatever!
Like i said
"I would back any time the Parasound Halo JC1+’s sound and drive-ability up against ANY Class-D into the loads the likes of the Alexia’s, B&W’s etc etc"
And that's what this thread is all about!!
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Parasound JC1+ was measured at 1200 watts into 2 ohms (if it doubled all the way down to 2 ohms then it would put out 2000 watts).....which, by the way is exactly what the NC2000 does (2000 watts)....sorry, Parasound loses. "Dreamer" I would back any time the Parasound Halo JC1+’s sound and drive-ability up against ANY Class-D into the loads the likes of the Alexia’s, B&W’s etc etc You and Ralph are both just in product protection mode, it's so obvious |
Title to this thread
What Class D amps will drive a 2 ohm load
Simple fact is: Class-D cannot drive a 2ohm load and double it's wattage down to that 2ohms, load like a good linear bi-polar amps, end of story!
That is why with the many speakers similar to the Alexia, B&W etc loading, Class-D's are not a good match, even complimentary push pull N and P channel Mosfets are not, except amps that use only N channel Mosfets only.
To others here. Both the above posters have financial interests in selling their own Class-D current or yet to be released, this is why they have their backs up.
Cheers George |
This is the OP again...it sounds like I am hearing Class D might not be the best for tough, low impedance load speakers.
If that is indeed the case, why is this and what has to change in Class D design to achieve it? The Mosfet output transistors themselves as well as the output filter, which both have not changed much since it’s inception. The GaN output transistors are maybe going to change that with optional far higher optional switching speed available, so then output filter can also be far higher up, then there’s also no phase shift down into the audio band. But this also needs small heat sinks to be used, as you can see below. But only one amp so far has utilized that combo this the unobtainable Technics $30K SE-R1 power amp. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/3c/fd/153cfd69d01a6ce16656dedab64f1519.jpg
https://www.technics.com/us/products/r1/se-r1.html
Cheers George |
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I wouldn’t believe any manufactures, specs only independent ones.
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With this Bel Canto e1X, even the 8ohm to 4ohm is a tell to what the 2ohm wouldn’t/couldn’t do grunt wise.
That wasn’t even considered to be measured as it would have fallen flat on it’s face like all Class-D’s do that I’ve seen, but at least it's stable into 2ohms and won't blow up. (so is a Nad 3020)
340Wpc into 8 ohms
530Wpc into 4 ohms |
Bel Canto e1X, stable into 2 ohms. See recent Stereophile review. Like I said, "stable into 2ohms" is a smoke screen furphy, to make the gullible feel it can happily drive 2ohms without strain, it just means it won’t oscillate and blow up, as Ralph also said two of his post back. So is a 1980’s 30w Nad-3020 stable into a "2ohm load", but there’s no way in the world it can drive it without any strain, if it could you would see the 4ohm wattage almost double into 2ohms, but that’s not given with the BC for a hidden reason. Even the Stereophile tests show the eX1 can’t even get close to doubling from 8ohm to 4ohm!!!, let alone the 2ohm, it for sure would have gone backwards, instead of up if it was given. 340Wpc into 8 ohms
530Wpc into 4 ohms Your welcome George |
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What's wrong with Behringer? I use a pair
👍 good for you |
So please stop just repeating what I’ve said first many times now, and aiming it back at me🤷♂️. |
'Stability' only refers to oscillation or the lack thereof. It says nothing about low impedances
To those here that want it explained. Like I've said on many occasions before https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1909794Cheers George |
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Retailer?
I personally own the Apogee 1 Ohm Scintillas and class D does wonder on these speakers. Hope that helps
🤦♂️
I have witnessed class D driving Thiel CS5
And It has no problem of driving the Thiel at all and sounds fantastic.
My friend own Krell FPB600.
🤦♂️
36 posts nearly every one on Class-D amplification🤷♂️
You have been asked before by other members.
h2oaudio, welcome. A friendly note: the expected courtesy here is for those that are in the "business" regardless of how small an enterprise it may be, proclaim that each time they post. This is especially true if they're listed as a "private user".
Cheers George |
Too many manufacturers here bend the truth and "con the readers" in their advertising into believing, that if they say their amps are "stable" into 2ohms, they can drive 2ohms loads easily, this is a "con" and needs to stop.
Like I said so many times now, a "stable" amp into 2ohm load means it won’t oscillate blow up and take out speaker drivers, but it does not mean it can drive the loads we are talking about here.
If it did, then as I say once again, a Nad 3020 could drive the Sony SS AR1 talked about in another thread, or Wilson Alexia’s because "it’s also stable into 2ohms", which it has no chance of doing, and there are vary degrees of this, right up to big expensive amps
Look at unbiased tests and see if an amp can do it by looking at it’s wattage doubling performance into 8ohm, 4ohm then 2ohm and remain stable doing it, then you’ll know if it’s comfortable and able to drive 2ohms and "yawning while doing it".
Many can double from 8 to 4ohms, but fall off a cliff when presented with 2ohms, these manufacturers usually only give 8 and 4ohm wattages hoping you’ll think it can do it into 2ohm as well, almost another con.
Cheers George
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It didn’t sound like like shi? There’s all degrees of s**t Mac says 2 ohm stable, it means STABLE So is a Nad 3020 integrated 2ohm stable, just means it won’t oscillate. Doesn’t mean it can drive that load to it’s fullest without breaking a sweat, same goes for the Mac. Cheers George |
Mcintosh MC275s in par or ser mode were "2 ohm stable"
I've said it before, there is a massive difference in sound driving a speaker that's <2ohms correctly, and saying an amp is just "2ohm stable" and another that can drive down to 2ohms by almost doubling it's wattage down to it, and "remain stable doing it". As I said before a $100 30w 1980's Nad 3020 integrated is also "2ohm stable" but sound like s**t into a 2ohm load, but hey! "it's 2ohm stable!!!" Cheers George |
