What CD player will warm my Thiel/Classe systm?

On 8/22 I wrote of the 1.6, "It's appropriate for smaller rooms, and listeners willing to live without the bottom 2.5 octaves being reproduced in full". That should have read bottom 1.5 octaves, the speaker is supposed to hold up in the bass until around 60Hz before roll-off.

Merely getting a better CDP probably ought be your focus. A superior player might or might not necessarily sound 'warmer' per se, but it should offer improved resolution, extension, dimensionality, tone color, dynamics, and textural refinement, with less congestion, all of which should make it more involving and pleasant to listen to. The Thiels will reveal the quality of whatever they're fed, and to this end the integrated amp, and whatever player you choose, might benefit from addressing issues of power conditioning and/or power cords in the system if you haven't already.

But Wlutke is right in bringing up that since the little 1.6's (which I think sound great BTW) can't offer the most generous lower-frequency balance, even if you don't feel the want or need to experiment with subwoofers (and assuming your room isn't too big for these speakers), it sounds like you might at least consider revisiting the topic of speaker and listening chair positioning, because as he implies changing CDPs alone isn't going to affect this particular impression (tonal balance) as much by comparison. Thiels do require certain set-up parameters in terms of listening distance and distance to sidewalls if they're not to sound bright, so if you have any questions in this area you should let us know your layout.

From what you just described, my recommendation to you as a "novice audiophile" is NOT to run out and buy a different CD player. Of course you may want to get a better CDP at some point, but this will have almost no bearing on your system's low frequency situation.

Listening to a portable through headphones with the bass boost engaged is not the way to judge accurate response, so if that is your subjective preference benchmark, you might be disappointed in this hobby. For better or worse, a speaker like a Thiel is designed to give flat response within its frequency range, so if a recording is bass-shy or if the treble is rolled off, that's the way it's going to sound, and audiophile preamps generally don't have tone controls to compensate. But even if you were to add an equalizer to the system, it could never duplicate the effect of your headphone rig.

As you surmise, the particular Thiel model you own is not designed to go all the way down in the bass (no small speaker does), and also won't exagerate the mid and upper bass instead for added "warmth". It's appropriate for smaller rooms, and listeners willing to live without the bottom 2.5 octaves being reproduced in full, who value its strengths elsewhere. This particular listening style and set of priorities is somewhat peculiar to one branch of the audiophile tree, and also dependent on the music being played. As you probably know, it wouldn't impress most kids who enjoy blasting hip-hop in their cars.

Whether it can give you Ron Carter is the question however. Integrating a sub for satisfactory results can be tricky. The Thiel subs probably would work fantastically with the 1.6, but as you note this seems a ridiculous proposition price-wise. Also, the Thiel subs are designed expressly to extend missing bass frequencies accurately -- not to 'goose' the whole lower end of the spectrum like a bass boost button, or to provide overt "warmth".

[Also, be aware that the word warmth has multiple meanings in audiophilia, not all of them having to do with frequency response per se. Prominent treble is considered to detract from warmth, as is a depressed lower midrange. Deep bass extension, but paradoxically also higher bass harmonic distortion and looser bass driver control, are typically thought of as adding warmth. Another meaning has to do with the harmonic signature imparted by gear in its reproduction of overtones. Anyway, this is why, when you ask about a warmer CDP, you won't necessarily get a solution to bass-shyness.]

What I'm wondering quite honestly is if you bought the wrong speakers. I'd appreciate you describing your room dimensions and listening tastes. Without this info, all you will get is all that you knew to ask for: pet recommendations for CD player shopping, rather than help with your problem.

"My room is about 20 x 30 with a high ceiling."

Aha! The good news is, your problem is identified. The bad news: upgrading your CDP isn't going take care of it. But no wonder you're here asking about ways to improve the sound.

Actually, the problem isn't your room -- that must be a great room. (Literally!) And it isn't the speakers, those are very good speakers. In fact, I'm not going to be so simplistic as to say the problem was the combination of the two, even though that's true.

The real problem lies (and I use that word advisedly) with the salesman who sold you that gear for that room. Either he neglected to ask the right questions that would have told him your needs, or he knew what he was getting you into, but chose instead to make an easier sale by catering to your stated budget and/or desire for compact gear (and, most likely, whatever brands/models you walked into the store positively-disposed toward from reviews and advertising). Either way he didn't earn his commission -- more like he saw you coming from jump street and pilfered it.

Anyway, this is where you are now: the 1.6's absolutely require a subwoofer to give anything like realistic response in your room. Which is not to say that adding one will cure everything you're hoing for, or that spending the same money (1.6's + sub) on a different pair of speakers (and not Thiels, fine as they are, or not new ones anyway) might not have been a better buy. But it's just the laws of physics which dictate that a pair of 6" woofer/mids -- even excellent ones with 3" voice-coils -- operating in cabinets with probably around 1.5 cubic feet of volume won't be adequate to drive circa 5,400-6,000 cubic feet of listening space (assuming a mere 9'-10' ceiling height, since you didn't specify other than to say "high") as the frequency descends.

And unlike some other small and small-woofered floorstanders or monitors, the 1.6, being a Thiel, doesn't have a shelved-down tweeter and a mid-bass hump to distract you from that reality (although to me the tweeter in the 1.6 doesn't sound quite as extended or detailed as those found in more costly Thiels, perhaps a wise and deliberate choice for this model). These are speakers that can sound great -- albeit still not with big balls in the low bass -- in rooms up to around 1,750 cubic ft. or so (example at the larger end of that scale: 12' x 18' x 8'). You can see the imperative -- since your room is at least 3X that volume, you should be having at least 3X the speaker in it.

Or use a subwoofer. I've actually auditioned the 1.6's in a room not far from the size of yours (in other words too big for the speakers), with and without a sub, and adding the sub can really help a lot. The one I heard them with was a smaller REL, but I'm not sure which model.

Steveaudio is probably right on target with this recommendation, for the reason that REL subs are designed to work strictly in "augmentation" mode, meaning they don't cross-over to the main speakers but simply add their LF response to them. The downside to this strategy is that it doesn't increase the volume level your small speakers can comfortably play at in a large room, so if you like to listen loud the 1.6's may still limit you in this area. The upside is that by augmenting rather than dividing the LF region between the sub and the mains, it will be much less difficult to get an acceptable transition between the two, because in your situation the 1.6's will need reinforcement in more than just the bottom 2 octaves.

By running a sub like an REL, which overlaps the mains through the mid-bass and *subtly* continues into the upper bass/lower midrange, dependent on how you set the contols and subject to adjustment with different recordings, you'll be able to add not just extension but also some of the warmer tonal balance that you are looking for. This won't be without some compromises -- for instance, it would easy to mess up stuff like male vocals or acoustic piano this way if abused, and certain aspects of reproduction will probably be a bit less natural no matter how judiciously the sub is adjusted because of how much you'll be asking it to do in this case -- but the advantages will almost certainly outweigh the disadvantages by a useful margin if done right. The only other caveat I can see is that a sub with a remote control might be most welcome in your situation, but I'm not sure which companies offer that. (Again, I think the Thiel sub would probably be outstanding for you, but don't think it makes as much sense in your situation unless you were upgrading the speakers -- to bigger Thiels in specific -- as well, though you could always take the incremental approach.)

However, I will disagree with Steveaudio about priorities. To me -- and I say this as a Thiel owner, who has gone from mass-market to mid-fi to high-end digital in my time with them -- you're probably better off getting the sub first if you're going to keep these speakers and continue using them in this room. I don't have any experience with your particular CDP, but most of the mass-market players from the past 15 years that I have heard tend to err on the 'warmer' side in terms of overall tonal balance, even if their treble presentation is not refined in and of itself, and their low bass may lack extension, control and dynamics.

In other words, when you do upgrade your Onkyo, don't be too surprised if you find out that it wasn't significantly thinning-out the balance, as much as perhaps doing things like flattening the soundstage, diminishing tonal and dynamic contrasts, glossing over fine detail, lacking extension at the frequency extremes, and giving a less defined, more amorphous presentation. And I'd say to save gear racks for last, if at all, since it sounds like you've got your stuff on a stable base, and besides which that whole topic is small potatoes compared to what your main necessity is at the moment. But my take is that you won't enjoy a new CDP nearly as much until you address the subwoofer first.

One more thing: I suspect you still may need to play around with set-up, sub or no sub. With the speakers 12' away and 12' apart, I imagine they're on the 20' (short) wall, firing down the 30' length of the room, and probably at least somewhat angled-in toward your ears? And that you don't have any acoustic surface treatments or stand-up damping devices? Please let us know about this, as well as your ceiling (height and construction), and how damped the room is in general (rugs? wall hangings? lots of furniture? or not -- lots of windows? much bare floor? concrete or brick anywhere?), and how far away from the wall your speakers are -- maybe further tuning is in order.

Thanks for the room description. Incredible, ain't it, that at three different shops no one asked about this. Along with a speaker's intrinsic response, the speaker/room interaction is really the most sonically determinative aspect of the entire system (any system).

The window treatment is a good idea, and it could allow you to aim the speakers a little more straight ahead, which would also reduce the perceived treble, though perhaps at the cost of some imaging precision. It might help to do something to damp or break up the reflection from the wall behind your chair as well. Unfortunately though, in addition to reflecting treble, windows leak bass, which the blinds won't affect (the fireplace might do so as well). It's probably good that you're set up firing across the short dimension of the room, which I was going to suggest if you weren't. I hope the area rug lies between you and the speakers. Having a wide placement separation between Thiels is not uncommon. Your listening distance is about the max recommended, but that's appropriate to your room size. Having the speakers 3 ft. away from the front wall is pretty standard, though moving them a little closer to the wall could increase the perceived lower frequency balance a bit.

But basically it sounds like you're working with what you've got, and the necessary evil (just kidding) of getting a sub is the next step, unless you were to change speakers (and even then you might still want a sub in this situation). It's no mystery to me that you preferred the sound of the Thiels in the store. The 1.6's aren't very demanding of power, though your room is, but I'm sure they appreciated the upgrade in amplification quality. You might try getting the outrigger stands if you don't already have them, as they could help slightly with the bass by increasing the footprint stability of the cabinets and hence LF wavelaunch. Best of luck with blending in a subwoofer and soliciting more advice on a new thread (lots of folks around here know more about subs than me :-), and let us know what happens, and when you get that CDP too.