"How do you know that the source material was not recorded so as to sound "constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving"? "
Huh? |
11-27-10: Rtn1
The volume control in the Wadia is decent. But, it is no match for a great preamp. A preamp can provide a more natural presentation with dynamics, texture, layering, and body.
what you are describing is a preamp that is, by definition, *not* transparent, but rather one that colors the input signal. it's fine with me if people want preamplifiers that color the input signal; it just seems crazy to me to read "audiophile" reviews that rave about how "transparent" this component is, or that component is, when in reality what they are seeking is a particular coloration.
11-27-10: Rtn1
In comparison, the (wadia) digital volume control can sound constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving.
my question to you is, how do you know that the source material was not recorded so as to sound "constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving"? it is my observation that the quality of recordings can vary widely. i mean, for all you know, the wadia could just be faithfully reproducing the signal being provided from the source material. if all you do is "trust your ears" while having no idea whatsoever about the underlying operations that produce the sound, all you can do is offer subjective observations about how the end result produced by the entire system sounds to you. but you most likely don't have enough information to ascribe that end result to the performance of any one component in the system. |
You don't have to read - just trust your ears |
11-28-10: Egidius
..thanks for your clarification! Good to know there is background behind a statement ;-)
I cannot judge 381 vs s7i, they will have similar problems.
Interesting point about the Digital pre - but:
isn't it always the case with a DAC giving out the full power (i.e. 100%),
or you mean to say, they could make a purist version without attenuation sounding - pure?
i think your question is could wadia make a cd player that had both fixed outputs and variable outputs. while you do see that feature in some cd players with integrated preamplifiers, it is unnecessary for wadia to offer such a feature. the reason is that the wadia preamplifier operates in the digital domain. the way that the wadia preamplifier operates, it attenuates signal volume digitally when the output level is less than 100 but does not attenuate the signal when the output level is 100. it is only after the digital signal level is determined that the a/d is performed and an analog voltage delivered on the analog outputs. so if you don't want signal attenuation, set the output level to 100 on the wadia. this unattenuated signal is equivalent to a "fixed" output that you might see on some other units. when you send the output from the wadia to the preamplifier, you should set the wadia output level at 100 and then control the volume level (in the analog domain) at the preamplifier. of course this unattentuated signal is not actually a "fixed" signal because you can vary the output. but since the varying is done in the digital domain you don't have the situation that you would have if the attenuation were done in the analog domain. in that case, you would perform the a/d conversion first to generate an unattenuated signal. this analog signal would be in the analog domain. one copy of the unattenuated signal would go to "fixed" output terminals. another copy of the unattenuated signal would go to preamplifier circuitry that would allow you to control the attenuated signal level, also in the analog domain. the signal output from the preamplifier circuitry would go to variable output terminals. the point that i am trying to get across is that since wadia does preamplification in the digital domain, you don't need 2 sets of outputs. since the wadia does preamplification in the digital domain, if you set the digital preamplifier level to 100, then you are sending an unattenuated signal to the a/d circuit. thus, analog output from the a/d circuit is like the "fixed" output. however, if you set the digital preamplifier level to less than 100, then the wadia attenuates the signal in the digital domain. it is the attenuated digital signal that is sent to the same a/d circuit. the a/d circuit then outputs an attenuated analog output signal. but to the a/d circuit, there is no difference, it just receives a digital signal and converts it. the a/d circuit does not have to know whether it has or has not been attenuated in the digital domain. however, where it can make a difference is that you can lose resolution through the process or digital attenuation. the source material from a redbook cd has 16 bits of digital resolution. the wadia operates with 21 bits of digital resolution. you lose about 0.5dB of volume with each step in the digital preamplifier control. thus, you can drop the digital preamplifier output level to about 65 (from 100) before you are prone to begin losing resolution in your digital signal. as you start losing resolution the signal can start to sound "thin". where it can also make a difference is when the signal output from the wadia is not loud enough. in that case you can adjust the maximum output signal level. the maximum output signal level from the wadia is over 4vrms. a 4vrms signal level may not drive a power amplifier into clipping, but it is pretty close, so you are probably not going to have any need to supply a voltage higher than that to a power amplifier even if you use a preamplifier. based on the discussion i have read here, even if you set the digital preamplifier output level to 100 (i.e. output an unattenuated signal from the wadia) there are some for whom the signal sounds better if it is passed through a preamplifier before it is sent to the power amplifier. if that is your experience as well, then you should send the output signal from the wadia into a preamplifier. that happens to not be my experience, so i prefer to drive the power amplifier directly from the wadia. i go through a preamplifier only if i want to play music at low volumes (where i am concerned about loss of signal resolution) or in cases where i need to use the preamplifier to get additional signal gain (beyond that which i can realize by driving the wadia directly into the power amplifier). if anyone is interested in learning more about the principles of wadia operation there are several white papers on the wadia website. |
..thanks for your clarification! Good to know there is background behind a statement ;-)
I cannot judge 381 vs s7i, they will have similar problems.
Interesting point about the Digital pre - but:
isn't it always the case with a DAC giving out the full power (i.e. 100%),
or you mean to say, they could make a purist version without attenuation sounding - pure?
My technical background is too small to judge this.. |
11-28-10: Chris10an
I own a Wadia S7i, and I have ekspermitteret with preamps with my S7i.
The conclusion was very clear. There is a HUGE difference between preamps, and there is also no doubt about, that a good preamp does it _much_ better than the digital preamp built into the Wadia S7i. For those who may doubt my conclusion, try using a Classé Omega MK III, Tidel Preos or Viola Cadenza.
i don't question that the wadia s7i sounds better to you when going through a preamplifier. but to make this point clear, you *always* go through the digital preamplifier with a wadia; there is no digital preamp bypass. in your case, the output of the wadia digital preamplifer drives the input of your preamplifier; and then your preamplifier drives your power amplifier. |
I own a Wadia S7i, and I have ekspermitteret with preamps with my S7i.
The conclusion was very clear. There is a HUGE difference between preamps, and there is also no doubt about, that a good preamp does it _much_ better than the digital preamp built into the Wadia S7i. For those who may doubt my conclusion, try using a Classé Omega MK III, Tidel Preos or Viola Cadenza.
The cost for a good preamp is definitely worth the price, compared to the improvement of the sound. |
The volume control in the Wadia is decent. But, it is no match for a great preamp. A preamp can provide a more natural presentation with dynamics, texture, layering, and body. This is not about lack of transparency or color. In comparison, the digital volume control can sound constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving. If you enjoy the perception of increased detail with the Wadia direct, then that is fine. I personally don't think some of that direct detail sounds real (i.e. black background, sharp note transients, shortened decay), so in a way, that can also be considered a coloration. |
11-27-10: Egidius
@paperw8 have you tried what you are explaining?
It's just, the statement by krellfan might not be wholly unexptected, if the pre substitutes something otherwise missing.
if your question is: have i driven a wadia directly into a power amplifier? the answer is yes. if your question is: have i driven a wadia s7i directly into a power amplifier? the answer is no, because i have a wadia 381 [i will leave it to the reader to determine how much difference that should make]. if your question is: have i modified the output voltage delivered by the wadia by flipping internal DIP switches? the answer is no because when i drive the wadia directly into the power amplifier i almost never set the output level of the wadia at 100%. generally i set the output level in the 65% to 85% range depending on the recording level of the source material. to be more specific, i drive the balanced outputs directly into the power amplifier and i drive the single-ended inputs to a preamplifier. i primarily tend to drive the wadia through a preamplifier when i want to listen late at night. i live in a residential area, so i can't blast music late at night. when i use a preamplifier i set the output level of the wadia at 100% and vary the output volume at the preamplifier. the reason why i do this is because the sound tends to become thin when you turn the digital output level at the wadia too low (as i described earlier). but as i stated, ultimately all of this stuff is a matter of preference. if it sounds better to you when you drive the wadia into a preamplifier, then you should drive the preamplifier from the output of the wadia. but what i am telling you is that when you do that, you aren't getting greater "transparancy"; instead, what you are getting is the sound produced by the wadia after it has been colored by the electronics in the preamplifier: that is the "something otherwise missing" to which you are referring. |
@paperw8 have you tried what you are explaining?
It's just, the statement by krellfan might not be wholly unexptected, if the pre substitutes something otherwise missing.
As to me: I did not fully like my 781 into Berning. But of course i will try again with the coming S7i.
Wish me luck for not needing a pre anymore. Wouldn't that be neat? |
06-26-10: Krellfan2002
I have a Wadia S7i at home and play with the Pass XP20 and XA160.5 but I prefer the preamp. Without the preamp I miss some body and dynamics. For me the preamp adds something.
the statement above makes absolutely no sense to me. the preamp can only work with the signal being provided by the source signal. so if the preamp "adds something" then what it is doing is coloring the source signal. wadia provides variable outputs where the preamplification is performed in the digital domain. the biggest problem that i have observed is when you adjust the variable output level too low. in theory, once you get below an output level of 65, you are starting to lose significant bits in the digital stream. in theory this would translate into less resolution. if you are at an output level of 75 or above, you probably aren't losing any significant bits. the other problem that you can encounter with direct connection is that with some low volume level source material (typically classical recordings since volume level is rarely a problem with popular recordings) the playback volume can be lower in comparison to connection through a preamp. by default wadia provides an output voltage of about 2vrms (i assume this is the output measured from the single-ended outputs and so i assume that the default is about 4vrms when using balanced outputs). as i stated, this is adequate for most recordings (for reference, power amplifier gain is usually measured based on a single-ended input signal level of about 2vrms). however, if it isn't the volume can be adjusted to produce a voltage output of up to 4.25vrms by setting all the internal DIP switches to the "open" position. if that output level is still not sufficient for the source material, then you would need to use a preamplifier. but presumably, in this case you are using the preamplifier to provide additional signal amplification with accurate reproduction of the source, as opposed to provide coloring of the source. of course, if coloring is what you want in your preamplifier (which is basically what you get with tube amplification) then that is entirely legitimate since all this stuff is a matter of personal preference. the point i am trying to make is that if you seek "transparency", then you aren't going to do better than direct connection from the wadia to the power amplifier; the potential limitation being that the direct connection may provide insufficient signal gain depending on the source material. |
Concur with Rtn1. The nice thing about the Wadia with GNSC mods is that it sounds excellent without a preamp and you can add a preamp later after you get to know the player. Alternatively, you may just prefer direct and stick with that. It's nice to have the option. |
Wadia direct to amp makes an impressive sound. As such, it is fine.
Add a great preamp, and it will make impressive music.
If you are budgeting money, I would probably first get the S7i with GNSC mods, running direct. Get the preamp later. |
If you have your internal switches controlling max output set in such a way that you can listen to a cd at the 100 setting without being unlistenably loud, compare the 100 setting on the volune control to 99. In my system with the 861SE, the 99 setting sounded compressed, flat, mechanical and "broken" by comparison to the 100 setting.i think the processing that takes place to control volume has a big impact on quality. You will not likely realice this unless you can compare it to 100.
I use my 861 into a preamp with it set to 100. While I may negate some of the sonic benefits of direct connection, I suspect that the negatives are not as bad as the negatives associated with using the volume control below 100.
The Wadia's are excellent units and should still be considered seriously even without the use of their digital volume control.
Andrew |
I have a Wadia S7i at home and play with the Pass XP20 and XA160.5 but I prefer the preamp. Without the preamp I miss some body and dynamics. For me the preamp adds something. But if you want to save money it works finr without a preamp.
Peter |
This may help. I recently auditioned a Boulder 865 integrated amp as well as the Boulder 850 monoblocks with my Wadia 381i CD player (not quite as good as the s7i but a great player nevertheless). I preferred by a slight margin the Wadia direct into the monoblocks as opposed to going through the integrated amp, but both were very good. Now the 850 is a better amp than the 865, but not overwhelmingly so. I thought the Wadia direct was purer, more transparent, perhaps lacking a little of the immediacy that the 865 brought to the table with its preamp. I think the new Wadias are just great minus the preamp, but I also think you can't go wrong using the Wadia with a really good, transparent preamp. The differences are just not that great and you'll get great sound both ways. |
