Only MC line-styli expertise out there, or am I too impatient :-) |
OK, some confirmation on a Shure V15 III VN35MR stylus that needs negative VTA, quote: "... this one needs neg. tracking angle, it was engineered for recordings when the angle of the cutter was frequently at 17-20 degr., not the contemporary 22-24, agreed upon sometime in the early 70's, if I remember correctly. Old recordings sound "tinny"? VTA. Let me know if I'm wrong."
Well, I think -Timeltel- is right --- and the VN35MR (Micro Line) is also 'parabolic' essentially what became a Shi(a)bata (Fine-Line --- Line-Contact?) type stylus, correct me if I'm wrong.
It is the lack of quoting a 'tracking angle' on these styli, as some do and most some don't, that makes it more difficult to get a correct answer. I have seen sofar anything from 20, to 22, to 25deg. when it is mentioned. |
Dear All,
thank you for those details shedding some light on all of this. I say SOME because now I'm in some turmoil about VTA, even accepting a fair degree of compromise I start to see why some arm manufactures come out with what others consider ridiculous, the VTA micrometer screw...
The range is now from -1.5mm to +5 or even 6mm up from level tone arm depending on the record plus stylus! That prospect seems plain awful :-(
Also, it becomes clear (to me) that the better the stylus' retrieval rate/mechanism the more in need of CONSTANT fiddling in order to maintain this now achieved high level of play-back standard!?
Put in an late 70s EMI, go up, put an early 60s London go down, put a re-issue RCA Plum-Dog go where?
Rainer's Chicago violins often are some sort of an 'ear-flossing' so go down? etc. etc.
In the 70s and 80s we had next to no such an issue ---- who ever talked about VTA then?
Nobody I know, including my hi-fi dealer...
I can start to see that this is becoming like the tyre changing rituals of Formula 1, each track in need of a different 'optimum' tyre? And never mind the weather, eish.
So now we can only pick some records we know, of sorts, and then find out if a cart, or the arm/cart sounds right.
I'm thrown, time I get back to some old elliptical cart and kiss all this hi-end thing good bye if every batch of different records needs a VTA change to maintain some hi-end standard.
OK, I'll enjoy the music, never mind if it shines out the last corner, or what ever... This could be a relieve like at Myth Busters.
Greetings,
Axel
PS: Maybe next is, we need an electronically VTA adjusted arm including level detection :-) |
Hi :-)
I think Raul is seeing the light, bless you man! >>> ... I focus and give more time to the music <<<
Maybe something to re-learn for a lot of us 'perfectionists' and count me in also.
Not so sure about DerTonarm's approach any more: >>> I do alter my VTA several times during each session <<<
Man oh man, is this it?
I do get my own exercises that way, oh yes, and it's becomes like a 'bad habit' it think.
Next I'd hop up in a concert and try do the same :-)
>>> Many sonic judgements regarding cartridges or tonearms may well be just a matter of a momentary "VTA sweet spot" on one combo and missing it again on the next. <<<
Yes Sir, I feel more and more this holds some powerful truth Mein Herr!
And >>> Missing the correct VTA for the given record is dangerous in a serious test set-up. <<< YES!!!!
That's what's been hitting me like a ton of bricks, actually. You sort of know it, but somehow not synthesise what it can actually result in.
Like I'm listening to some of my classic older vinyl, fiddled the VTA to some point of general 'consensus' (with my self), in comes my Audio friend and insists on hearing 'Tin Pan Alley' for the 1 000 time, and tells me that cartridge sux! Ha!
Don't know if want to cry or laugh?
Cheers,
Axel
PS: Hyper resolving carts (ALL MCs...) are now being considered the HEROIN of hi-end. You get addicted, have to pay the price, and pain of the withdrawal syndromes... |
Hi All,
Doug says:
>>> ... Yet we heard the difference when VTA happened to be just right and it began to annoy us when it was off. <<<
That is also exactly my experience, no argument at all, including the annoying thing when it is off.
There are some records were I would not know at this stage, if they are just too bright (Mercury, Electra..) or some just too dull.
I agree that after some time one gets a feeling for how much up/down would get you close, but in those cases it would be so much, 4-5mm, that the next record would have to be re-adjusted again by a similar margin.
What have our experts in store for tone arms other then: Graham, VPI, TriPlanar ? --- Go get one :-)...
And how about these so much discussed and so highly rated oldies like: Fidelity Research FR-66S, Audiocraft AC-4400, SAEC 506/30, Micro Seiki MAX-282, etc.
That makes $6 500 arm even more a 'collectors item' with VTA adjustments at least as 'wanting' as an SME...
Or is it, in getting back to the subject, that using 'parabolic' and/or 'elliptical' styli will take care of some of these VTA variations?
I think they aught to be more 'forgiving' as they are less resolving?
Raul takes up MMs, now we are getting back to elliptical? (I did NOT say spherical yet :-)
Axel |
DerTonearm,
I have an SME V, you'd recall and I use hardwood spacers, my shelf would start to look like a 'Baukloetzchenkasten' :-)
>>> Changing VTA becomes a matter of 15 seconds. <<< maybe with a Micrometer VTA arm, yes.
Doug,
:-).... >>> Records that we've played for years develop a long list of height settings as we change cartridges (5 or 6 so far) and tables (3). <<<
Like I'm so behind the curve people, shame on me, what can I say :-)
>>> for any given LP is extremely small, especially with a modern stylus profile <<<
Hey, keep it coming Doug! I's afraid to hear all of that. I start looking for my CD player from underneath the table (where I've taken cover).
No joke, how on earth can you practice that with a more 'normal' arm I ask?
I'd be up to my eyeballs in wooden spacers and not talking in microns of up/down...
In terms of this gambit a hell of a lot of tone-arms would just not quality, or? Makes me think of all these old ones... you know.
Big thanks you for sharing some of your 'inner circle' stuff, I truly appreciate that. So much more food for though, oh my!
Bless all your dedication, now I gotta go and try sleep this off...
Axel |
Hi D.
thunder and lightning, there we have it, and I guess all works just the way you put it.
Like buying a new car and then wanting to fit old (white wall?) tyres.
Thank you for clarifing this matter.
Axel
PS: and then some time, if you try, you get what you need... |
Hi Timeltel
you say:
>>> ... it seems to me that the narrower the profile of the stylus in contact with the groove walls, (some) divergence becomes less critical and the less apparent (slight) VTA error becomes <<<
If I read you correctly it would contradict my understanding diametrically, as you then say that: a conical, next a hemi-spherical, followed by elliptical, then parabolic and micro-ride would become less and less critical in terms of VTA error...?
Are we sure that's your position?
Well, wow, ok, hm... Right, let's see were we are in agreement... I'm thinking...
That would not even be with the 'smearing' part...
Huston we have a problem!
All those styli going back down the line (also in time) from a VERY narrow fine-line contact stylus to a conical stylus would be more and more unable to produce micro detail i.e. 'swallow' it if you wish, since they can NOT completely trace the last bit of groove detail.
So maybe we find some common ground with this. Since it is blatantly obvious when listening to a conical stylus and then a fine-line type stylus, there is less information detail.
So what does that mean? Less and lesser detail = less **perceivable** time smear = less noticeable VTA error, would you follow me on this one at all?
Some expert put it this way: If you change VTA (and most noticeable with micro/fine-line contact styli) you are changing the treble to mid/bass information retrieval IN TIME i.e. lift the arm (more positive SRA/VTA) and you start to 'advance' the higher frequencies or retard them by going down (all relative from the 'best' / most correct retrieval position or SRA).
If you are still with we, then this means that the higher the resolution, the more **noticeable** a VTA/SRA deviation from 'spot on'. And in turn, the less resolution, simply the more 'forgiving'.
So far may understanding --- but as always the facts never tell the hole truth, since there are so many of them :-)
>>> ..I share [Raul's] philosophy of setup to an acceptable standard and then "enjoy the music" <<<
I'm trying to work this out for myself, and still searching as it were. While sheer cost helps somewhat, to find it :-)
Greetings,
Axel |
Well, Herr Tonarm :-)
so what's the solution?
Get a VTA-tower of some sort, or spend ~ 5min plus extra with every LP played to re-set VTA?
And then wear the hole mechanism with all this up/down, it was NOT actually designed for in the first place?
I share your goal for best possible play-back --- the enquiry is about where this 'best possible' starts & ends for the individual enthusiast, including money AND time spend.
Not every one driving a car requires a Bentley or a Bugatti, I think.
Pondering,
Axel |
Hi,
so no compromise solutions on VTA, is where it's at.
I had it coming I guess, hm.
"Ask questions, get answers" :-)
I've already increased my stock of VTA shims by over 100% in between listening and blogging. And now I guess I better shut up.
Greetings,
Axel
PS: I've just not yet come around to mess with my beautifully restored record covers, relying on my memory +/-, eish. |
Hi Timeltel and All,
it is actually very nice to have all these different takes, what makes life interesting - variation :-)
Thank you also for pulling the thread back onto the subject.
Since I got more curious about the V15's VTA preference. So, parabolic vs. elliptical and all, I put in a AT-140LC.
I had listened to it before (the negative VTA finding) and it sounded 'papery' and a bit 'plasticy'. I'd mentioned it to Raul in the context of a stylus insert replacement, a ATN440MLa in that case.
Recall, LC stands for Line-Contact and I should guess one more synonym for 'parabolic'?
Back in that AT-140LC went -- and this time with negative VTA, actually the same ~ -1.5mm as the V15. Now it plays VERY nice in deed. (Are we giving away some secret formula?)
I can tell, that e.g. the Empire S1000 ZE/X has an elliptical stylus, and sure enough it needs to go up, about +1mm from level arm, maybe even some more.
These are obviously very few samples, of only a few carts, but so far they seem to stick to what Pete Townshend had to say about his then EEI (Elite Electronic Industries, Victoria AU) carts.
Maybe we can find some more confirmation, and this is not just some more odd-ball thing.
Axel |
