VPI TNT Bladder replacement
Hoping for a little guidance on this because the bladders in my VPI TNT 3 legs are toast. I've read that good substitutes are a squash ball,
racquetball or paddle ball, the Gingko ball, or perhaps the Herbie's ball as well. But, it's not at all clear how this replacement is actually installed - so hopefully someone out there can share their solution.
Here's the background to my question:
Here's the background to my question:
- yes, the bladders are easily removed
- leg cavity holding the bladders is approx 2" diameter measured parallel to the plinth - and this diameter is reduced 1/4" or so by the two bolt heads (which intrude into the leg cavity) that connect the leg to the plinth
- leg cavity height (vertical) is about 2-1/4"
- Squash ball diameter is 1.6" and seems too small
- Herbie's ball diameter is 1-7/8" and might be a tad small and too hard to squeeze past the bolt heads
- Racquetball diameter is 2-1/4" and might be too large to squeeze past the bolt heads. And if it does squeeze past the bolts, it might not stick out far enough below the leg cavity to provide support
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They are a pain, poon. Harry once stated that they ultimately work better than VPI’s handball upgrade, but at a high cost of convenience IME. I am considering a Symposium Ultra shelf with solid coupling to bypass the feet all together... Good suggestion to invoke the VPI forum, maybe also the ET-2 Tonearm Owners forum. Several experienced TNT owners on there... I am looking forward to reading what you come up with. Best to you poonbean, Dave |
I converted mine to the ball suspension. I placed a cork/plastic disc cork side against the ball into the cavity first so an allen head set-screw could be run down to adjust height. Then I used squash balls which while too small works fine once modded. The mod was I wrapped a piece of thin weatherstripping with adhesive side all the way around except where the bolt heads were. Sort of a "C" shape. Works fine. Floats as nicely as before with a better grounded sound. |
Thanks - you just confirmed my suspicion that it's clearly not a plug and play repair ball install. The tops of the VPI legs on my TNT are not threaded, so I don't see how your clever allen screw would work...? Looking more at ball diameters, turns out tennis balls are 2.75" diameter, which means the leg cavity (with ID of 2") could sit right on top of the tennis ball and not roll around - height could be adjusted with shims under the ball. Seems too easy, so I'll give that a shot this weekend. I'll also ask the VPI forum and will report back... |
I think the "stock" apparatus was removed when the air bladders were installed by VPI, thus no threads. Same boat here. I recall speaking directly to Harry many years ago about my air bladders and he remarked that they needed to be adjusted to <3psi in order to take the resonance frequency below the audible range. You may want to try drilling holes in the tennis balls to try to do the same. Look forward to reading what you discover, poonbean. Dave |
wntrmute- just read your post on vpi forum - that clears up the construction questions for me - thx for the additional info. I tried the tennis balls and yes, the towers sat perfectly right on top of the tennis balls, just as I planned, and compared with what I'd been listening to (tower basically resting solidly on top of the vpi feet), the sound was far worse - unfocused, honky, lacking bass. Odd, I thought, since it's pressurized air supporting the table - pressurized air as originally designed. Moving on - from dlcockrun above, if vpi wants 3 psi or less to deal with resonance, tennis balls and racquetballs are built with about 12psi - or so says google. So, I'm thinking neither of those ball solutions come close to the vpi goal, and the solid connection - tower to foot - sounded better than my silly easy tennis ball idea. For those following this thread, Brf from the vpi forum also provided this: The first thing to do is to contact VPI and enquire if they have any TNT Ball Suspension conversion kits still available. If so, it's any easy conversion, otherwise you will need to fabricate a few parts to help accommodate the racquet ball. Please see this thread for some ideas. http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6049&p=13322&hilit=Weather#p13322 If you have leaky air bladder, you can insert some Stans NoTubes sealer which is readily available at most bike stores. (yet, another simple solution!!) However, while the link provided by Brf provides a nice description of how to construct a solid wood insert for the tower, it does not accommodate a ball. But, wntrmute's elegant solution does include a ball. So, I took my setup into the direction of a better solid connection and took the vpi feet off. Then, simply supported the table plinth on top of three BDR cones that sit on top of a pair of 1-5/8" x 4" hardrock maple sticks running left to right, at the front and back. That gets the cones up high enough to clear the towers, and gives the tonearm cable plenty of room to gently bend as before. Best of all, it provided a very nice improvement from the prior tower to foot support. Then, I substituted the BDRs for some stillpoint knockoff - don't know what these actually are - and that sounds even better. I'll guess that my preference for the solid connection over the air bladder/ball support might have something to do with the room and the rack. In my case, the "rack" is custom built into the exterior wall so that each shelf consists of a pair of hardrock maple (same size as above) arms secured to triple thick wall studs so as to extend horizontally into the room. Basically, all gear (except for the amps at the speakers) sit on maple shelves that sit on maple arms that are mounted to an exterior wall. This rack construct came from Rives audio, who provided some designs for the room - cheap, solid, sounds good, looks cool, and forget about moving it. At this point, I'm moving away from the ball in tower support idea and towards a solid connection to the plinth. Might try a ceraball or small stillpoint under the table next ... Thx to all for the help. |
Good feedback poon. I suspected as much re: the tennis balls. I have found that vibration/resonance control has to do with two principles: 1) Dissipating the vibration coming to the component and 2) Drawing and dissipating the internal vibration/resonance away from the component. Soft, squishy things can do 1) well but fail miserably at 2), actually trapping the internal vibrations inside the component with unpredictable results. Direct coupling the plinth to the sub-base as you have done will accomplish 2), but can amplify 1). Direct coupling the plinth to an effective constrained-layer base that draws the vibrations from the table while also isolating the table from the vibrations coming up through the stand addresses both. I like the Symposium platforms for this, but there may be other equally effective (cheaper) solutions. Hopefully you have already isolated (separated) the motor from whatever platform you are using under the plinth. Best to you poonbean, Dave |
Very helpful. Hmm, based on that, I suspect my rack does a good job at isolating the gear from external vibrations. So, I'll focus on dissipating internal vibrations. Obviously a turntable will have those. How much internal vibration can be generated by a power supply, preamp, or dac? Re isolating the motor from the plinth - good point - not clear how to do that beyond what I've got set up now, which btw, generates less rumble than original setup. Currently, the plinth is resting on three stillpoint-esq feet which sit on 1-5/8" thick maple, which rests on the same maple shelf as the motor. Thoughts? |
Hi poonbean, Look at my Virtual System page. You can cut out the maple for the motor. Rest it on the cutout and then experiment with different shings underneath the cutout. Placing it on Jenga blocks to bypass the rubber feet helps IME, but don't remove them as I have read that the screws hold some of the motor's internals in place. Thread drive is a big improvement over the belts. Best to you, Dave |
Try Jenga blocks under the motor, just so the rubber feet don’t touch the platform or the blocks. re: thread drive, buy some unwaxed dental floss and use your belt as a guide for length. Practice tying knots that don’t slip (very important). Simply thread the dental floss around your platter (careful not to hook your stylus) and then work it around the flywheel pulley or motor shaft (whichever setup you have). Bypass the tri-pulley system if you have one. Tension is established by moving the motor or flywheel slightly backwards or forwards. Tension should be snug but not too tight. It will help to give the platter a start by briefly turning the clamp knob by hand when starting up. Best to you poonbean, Dave |