vinyl versus digital redux


Has anyone compared the sound of vinyl with the sound of digital converted from a vinyl intermediary ?

I am referring to 'rips' of vinyl made with high end, high quality vinyl playback systems, with
conversion to high resolution digital.
I find it nearly impossible to distinguish the two results.
The digital rip of a vinyl record sounds identical...or very nearly so...to direct playback of the vinyl.

If one has 'experienced' the foregoing, one might question why digital made without the intermediary of vinyl sounds so different from vinyl.   A detective story ?

We are talking about vinyl made by ADC (analog to digital conversion) of an amplified microphone signal and re-conversion to analog for output to the record cutting lathe, or from analog tape recording of an amplified microphone signal, and then....as above...via ADCl and back to analog for output to the cutting lathe.

Of course vinyl can be and is 'cut' (pressings made from 'stamper' copies the 'master' cut in lacquer) without digital intermediary.  Such practice is apparently uncommon, and ?? identified as such by the 'label' (production)

Has anyone compared vinyl and high resolution digital (downloads) albums offered by the same 'label' of the same performance ?  Granted, digital versus vinyl difference should diminish with higher digital resolution.   Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not 'travel' in digital bits.    A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases.

If vinyl and digital well made from vinyl intermediary sound almost identical, and If vinyl and digital not made via vinyl intermediary sound quite different, what is the source of this difference ? 

Could it reside....I'll skip the sound processing stages (including RIAA equalization)...in the electro-mechanical process imparting the signal to the vinyl groove ?

Is there analogy with speaker cone material and the need for a degree of self-damping ?
Were self-damping not to some extent desirable, would not all speaker cones, from tweeter to sub-woofer, be made of materials where stiffness to weight ratio was of sole importance ?

Thanks for any comments.
seventies

Showing 2 responses by rossb

I disagree with the basic premise of this thread.

First, I don’t agree that digital recordings of LPs sound indistinguishable from the originals in all respects.

Second, I don’t agree that the reason LPs often sound better than digital recordings is euphonic distortions or colorations.

Addressing the first point, in my experience, digital recordings of LPs can sound extremely good and can be indistinguishable from the original at a superficial level. But over the longer term the digital recording suffers from the same issues as all digital recordings - a slight sense of artificiality, a slight sense of remove from the musical event, and a sense of unease which is so slight as to be almost unfelt. These differences are not apparent on an A/B comparison, but do become apparent if listening over a longer time period. This is not to say that digital recordings of LPs (or digital recordings per se) cannot sound good or be enjoyed over the longer term; they certainly can, but it is a different experience to listening to a purely analog recording.

Second, it is true that LP playback involves many distortions and colorations, introduced by the various stages of equilization, the physical process of playback, including tracking distortions and the mechanical movement of the stylus in the groove, the and the additional gain stages (amongst others). But I believe for most listeners of high end vinyl systems, vinyl remains preferable despite these obvious issues.

The distortions in vinyl are often only too audible, and yet we tolerate them precisely because vinyl does seem to recreate something of the original performance that digital somehow does not capture. It is not that vinyl sounds better because it is adding something; it is that digital is still not yet able to reproduce something essential in the musical experience. It may be timing errors and pre or post-ringing, it may be aliasing artifacts, I don’t really know. Digital has improved remarkably over the last decade or so and is extremely good. At a superficial level it really does sound "transparent" to the source material; but at a deeper level many of us continue to have a sense that there is still something missing. And that is why we still listen to vinyl, despite its obvious limitations, distortions and colorations - we listen through these because it still captures something essential which digital has not quite been able to do yet.

If it were true that people prefer vinyl because of additive distortions and colorations, then this would be relatively easy to demonstrate. Digital recordings on LP would sound just as good as analog recordings. But they don’t. Digital recordings played back as LPs still sound digital - they still have that sense of artificiality, only with LP’s distortions added as well. And it would be possible to add LP-like distortions and colorations to digital files to make them sound like LPs. I have seen many attempts at this and they have all failed - they still just sound like bad digital recordings, and nothing like good analog playback.

If digital recordings of LPs were in fact indistinguishable from the originals, and the reason people prefer LPs is because of additive distortions, then I would agree that this would be a strong argument for the superiority of digital playback. But I do not think those premises are correct, and the reason many - though not all - discerning people with good critical listening skills and good hi fi systems prefer vinyl is the inherent limitations of digital, not the additive distortions of vinyl.
I have made quite a lot of digital recordings of LPs, but mainly for comparison purposes, when trying to compare, say, tonearms or cartridges. I can play the samples over and over without damage to the record or stylus, and it gives me a good basis for comparing the sound of two cartridges, for example.
I also have a few records which I have recorded because they are not otherwise available in digital form.
But for most of my several thousand LPs I just listen to the record. I have a good AD converter from RME and a great DAC (a Lumin X1) but the digital recordings never sound quite as good as playing back the originals on a turntable.