I must admit, it is time consuming and a bit tedious, but well worth the effort.
Enjoy the music.
vinyl versus digital redux
Has anyone compared the sound of vinyl with the sound of digital converted from a vinyl intermediary ?
I am referring to 'rips' of vinyl made with high end, high quality vinyl playback systems, with
conversion to high resolution digital.
I find it nearly impossible to distinguish the two results.
The digital rip of a vinyl record sounds identical...or very nearly so...to direct playback of the vinyl.
If one has 'experienced' the foregoing, one might question why digital made without the intermediary of vinyl sounds so different from vinyl. A detective story ?
We are talking about vinyl made by ADC (analog to digital conversion) of an amplified microphone signal and re-conversion to analog for output to the record cutting lathe, or from analog tape recording of an amplified microphone signal, and then....as above...via ADCl and back to analog for output to the cutting lathe.
Of course vinyl can be and is 'cut' (pressings made from 'stamper' copies the 'master' cut in lacquer) without digital intermediary. Such practice is apparently uncommon, and ?? identified as such by the 'label' (production)
Has anyone compared vinyl and high resolution digital (downloads) albums offered by the same 'label' of the same performance ? Granted, digital versus vinyl difference should diminish with higher digital resolution. Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not 'travel' in digital bits. A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases.
If vinyl and digital well made from vinyl intermediary sound almost identical, and If vinyl and digital not made via vinyl intermediary sound quite different, what is the source of this difference ?
Could it reside....I'll skip the sound processing stages (including RIAA equalization)...in the electro-mechanical process imparting the signal to the vinyl groove ?
Is there analogy with speaker cone material and the need for a degree of self-damping ?
Were self-damping not to some extent desirable, would not all speaker cones, from tweeter to sub-woofer, be made of materials where stiffness to weight ratio was of sole importance ?
Thanks for any comments.
I am referring to 'rips' of vinyl made with high end, high quality vinyl playback systems, with
conversion to high resolution digital.
I find it nearly impossible to distinguish the two results.
The digital rip of a vinyl record sounds identical...or very nearly so...to direct playback of the vinyl.
If one has 'experienced' the foregoing, one might question why digital made without the intermediary of vinyl sounds so different from vinyl. A detective story ?
We are talking about vinyl made by ADC (analog to digital conversion) of an amplified microphone signal and re-conversion to analog for output to the record cutting lathe, or from analog tape recording of an amplified microphone signal, and then....as above...via ADCl and back to analog for output to the cutting lathe.
Of course vinyl can be and is 'cut' (pressings made from 'stamper' copies the 'master' cut in lacquer) without digital intermediary. Such practice is apparently uncommon, and ?? identified as such by the 'label' (production)
Has anyone compared vinyl and high resolution digital (downloads) albums offered by the same 'label' of the same performance ? Granted, digital versus vinyl difference should diminish with higher digital resolution. Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not 'travel' in digital bits. A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases.
If vinyl and digital well made from vinyl intermediary sound almost identical, and If vinyl and digital not made via vinyl intermediary sound quite different, what is the source of this difference ?
Could it reside....I'll skip the sound processing stages (including RIAA equalization)...in the electro-mechanical process imparting the signal to the vinyl groove ?
Is there analogy with speaker cone material and the need for a degree of self-damping ?
Were self-damping not to some extent desirable, would not all speaker cones, from tweeter to sub-woofer, be made of materials where stiffness to weight ratio was of sole importance ?
Thanks for any comments.
Showing 24 responses by orpheus10
Mijostyn, "Playing vinyl I prefer it right off the diamond." Why would you prefer it right off the diamond if you could hear the same thing off the hard-drive? Wouldn't it be easier to relax in the "sweet spot" and not have to get up at the end of side 1 to flip the record over, and repeat that for each record. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying you don't hear the same thing when you load up a digital playlist and let the computer go at it? Anyone who is not getting the same thing "off-the hard-drive" as "off the diamond" is not doing something right, because I am getting the same thing "off the hard-drive" as "off the diamond". Is this a case of the "fox and the grapes"? |
It's quite similar to recording on a reel to reel; you have to make sure the level is not too high or too low; some records are hot (high level) while others are soft, so you have to make sure that's adjusted properly on each record, but it's as easy as recording to a reel. In regard to setting up the programming, I have someone who has a degree in computer science to assist me, I must confess, I don't really understand computers, but he does. |
Cleeds, first I relax in the recliner that's in the sweet spot and listen for the needle to drop on the first LP that I've programmed on my play-list. Then I began to spiral into the holographic soundscape that's presented before me. Since I don't have to jump up like a jack rabbit at the end of each LP, I wait for side 2 and get deeper into the music; the same music that's coming out is the same music that went in, including every nuance. Each LP takes me deeper into the music, music that I've accumulated over many years and all the memories associated with that music. In regard to the process, it's no more tedious than playing a record. |
In the beginning, hardware was made available to down-load LP's to hard drive. It was not of "Audiophile" quality. I'm a technician, I had the ability to purchase what was available and rebuild it to audiophile standards (easier said than done, had to build a new cabinet, works, but never again) Eventually new computer cards came on line, and Benchmark made a new analog to digital converter (which they no longer make), also the audiophile computer cards are no longer available. They said it couldn't be done (we believers did it). They didn't believe us, now it can't be done because what's needed to do it is no longer available due to lack of demand. Presently, I'm doing what can't be done for the third time because I have what's necessary to do it, but the joke is; they said it couldn't be done and now it can't be done. |
I've done so many things that I've forgotten what I've done, but my playback is identical to playing the TT which is why I have to do this thing all over again each time I make an improvement. After I down-load my favorite LP's, I program the play list, and that's the only way I listen to my record collection. This is the third and last time I'm doing this. I have a Stereophile "A" rated CD player, and my analog rig is head and shoulders above that, so I'm quite satisfied. Although I realize you can always get better, I doubt very seriously if I'll try. Many others are getting the same results I'm getting so it's not that unusual. But this was back when what we were doing was new, and there were many different ways to do it. I doubt if those computer cards that enabled us to get these results are still available, but all that information is somewhere on this forum, because we had long heated debates that raged back and forth. Some people get great joy from playing their records, I don't; I only like to enjoy how fantastic they sound after purchasing a better cartridge and NOS tubes in my case that put it all over the top. Have fun spinning records and enjoy the music. Thanks for answering my question. |
How sweet it is! My favorite cut "Singing Winds and Crying Beasts" off of my all time favorite album, "Santana Abraxas" coming to me off of my computer play-list, from my latest LP down-load after new cartridge, plus NOS tubes installed in phono. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xskk5q1DL6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT1s96JIb0 It's like hearing this for the first time; although I have worn out numerous LP's that I played to death, I never heard it like I'm hearing it now. This music takes me back to the 70's, at my favorite club, the "Fontainebleau" (no, not that one, but another one with the same name) The color was "hot pink", and ladies wore those stockings that glowed under black lights. When they walked through the club wearing these stockings, the lights from down low made it appear as though there were beautiful glowing legs walking through the club. This music intensifies my memories of those fantastic times. Looking for a new pipe at a "head shop" was a lot of fun; there were these glowing posters, and always the smell of sweet incense, which was another item on the shopping list. Decisions, decisions; so many different sweet fragrances, which one to choose; jasmine, peach, or wild-flower? This was the age of "Aquarius"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajgeaOt_HTQ Those were the most incredible times in my life, I hope you were there. |
It's hard for me to understand other people's problems because I don't have any. Just about the time CD's came out, I was buying LP's like crazy. CD's "appeared to be" superior to LP's, so I went exclusively into CD's, leaving all my new LP's going unplayed. (I had the same kind of record player we all had back in the day) A CD and CD player was, and still is clearly superior to that rig. Not until many years later was "high end" analog revealed to me; it wasn't the record, but the "record player". Back in the day, we spent $200, for TT, and 60 to $150 for cartridge; that was common. You know what's common for our analog rigs now, a lot more than back then, plus they are many times more complex, no wonder records sound better. "I am asking about LP's made decades ago from analog tape...whether these lp's preserve sound...particularly high frequency sound...better than does the tape itself." The LP sounds good, but never better than the tape. As a result of not playing all those old records after purchase, I have many new LP's that were purchased back in the day. Just yesterday, I down-loaded "Azymuth Spectrum", recorded in Rio Brazil 1985, and I must have purchased it about that time; this album is dead silent. That's representative of many of my LP's. I can't answer questions about these new processes. |
Seventies, I am a reel to reel and tape enthusiast; as it pertains to your question, disregard it; it's expensive, and there is a better way. I already have everything stored on "external hard drive". When I get a new CD, I down-load it into the computer, and it goes to the external hard-drive. Very rarely do I pop a CD into the player, I simply add it to the playlist on the computer. Presently I'm working on my third "down-loading" of LP's onto the external hard-drive. This has to be done whenever you make significant improvements in your analog rig and you want to enjoy them on computer playback. All of my CD's and my favorite LP's are stored on the "external-hard" drive and no lights have flashed to indicate that I'm running out of space. This is the third time for LP's; in other words, 3 times my collection of LP's are on the hard-drive because this is the third improvement. Now I have to "delete" the first two times I did this in order to free up space on the hard-drive. This is the computer age. I know very little about the things, but I have a "guru" who does. Fortunately this external hard drive thing is neither expensive or complicated. |
Seventies, in regard to preservation of music, it has been unanimously decided by the most astute audiophiles that reel to reel tape is ultimate audio for "music lovers" . In regard to computer storage, I use WAV and the difference between the playback of the reel to reel and the playback of reel to reel tape that I've stored on computer files is "minute". I'm of that age, which could be questioned in regard to my hearing, but I think it's still pretty good; however, since I am of that age, the allegation that I don't have perfect hearing would have some merit. Never the less, I can distinguish the difference between LP playback, reel to reel playback, or CD playback from my computer. There are some differences between my computer and stock computers in regard to cards, there is one card for sure that was recommended for analog transfer, but I don't remember which one it is. That information might be on the PC forum. I know for sure that if you do everything right, whatever you store on your computer will be practically indistinguishable from the original. I used hi-res for awhile, but not every record was perfect; it was hit and miss so I quit, but that was when they first started. |
If everyone will permit me, I would like to share with you how overjoyed I am with the improvements in my rig; same TT but new cartridge and NOS tubes for the phono. Of course these same improvements are heard on computer playback, but let's disregard that for the moment. Records that I was neutral on, and hardly played for many years, now sound quite interesting. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand, just my elated joy with the improvement from something less than a monumental cost. |
This is just downright comical; "old farts" saying it couldn't be done, and now it can't be done because the equipment to do it is no longer available. I'm an old fart, but I realized that digital and computers eluded me; I don't understand the stuff, that's why I sought a computer "Guru" who has a college degree in the stuff. In the beginning when I asked him questions in an effort to learn, he tried to explain, but each time he noted that totally blank look on my face, that's when he decided it was hopeless. Now he just asks what it is that I want done, indicating; "Please don't waste my time by asking questions". That works for both of us. Maybe the computer train done come and gone for all the "old farts", but you will get a lot more out of this hobby if you find a computer Guru. |
audio2design, no, there is no magic, but you must have the right equipment; this plus I changed a card in my computer to enable a smooth conversion of the analog to digital process. https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-adc1-usb-audio-converter The people who would benefit from doing what I have done were too busy saying it could not be done instead of doing it. Now it's possible that they are correct, because it can not be done if what's needed to do it is no longer available. How sweet it is to lay in bed and enjoy your vinyl collection in all it's glory, the same as if you were dropping the needle on the LP, at 3:00 in the morning (I sleep sporadically) Enjoy the music. |
It seems that the latest posts are from technicians or engineers, as opposed to "high end" music lovers. The reason I specified "high end" is because most of the qualities pertaining to high end audio gear can not be measured; as a matter of "fact", after the engineers finish with Audio Research amps, they give them to audiophiles who don't even know Ohms law for final tuning based on their educated ears. I have earned a living as an electronics technician, and I am a devotee of high end audio equipment. We begin where specifications end; that is in the subconscious audio realm in regard to the subjective evaluation of the music. Presently, I'm listening to a new noiseless record that has me in a state of quiet euphoria. Were I to compare it to a CD, I already know the difference; "some of the emotional component would be missing"; we call that "musicality". The only meter qualified to measure such a quality resides in the mind, which is located somewhere in the brain. Like many of the finer things in life, this love for high end analog is left for the connoisseurs of such things to enjoy, while those with less sophisticated taste look on. |
Although it's been stated a dozen times, some people don't believe it because they have not, or can not achieve it. That is, duplication of a vinyl LP to the hard-drive on a computer to the extent that even the most devoted vinyl enthusiast can not tell the difference between the computer playback and the record being played on the turntable. Some years ago, when this argument was raging, they (analogers) said it couldn't be done. The PC and the digital people said it could. I knew very little about PC at that time so I listened. There are cards that you have to change in your computer, plus have the proper analog to digital conversion equipment that's compatible with your computer. "Benchmark" came out with the conversion unit. (There was none available when I began, so I had to buy one of lesser than audiophile quality and rebuild it, I'm an electronics technician) I'm not sure if you can purchase the Benchmark new any more because I think they quit making it. But no one is saying the LP is not special; I am saying that I capture every nuance that it delivers, and enjoy the exquisite sound of each LP on my computer play-back. |
Benchmark also makes the best vinyl transfer to digital, on your hard-drive. Presently I'm working on my third time down-loading my vinyl to hard-drive. After purchasing a more expensive cartridge and NOS tubes for the phono-pre, in order to enjoy the improvements on playback from the computer, this has to be done. It wasn't easy to get identical results from just spinning a record and computer playback, but many of us have it. The advantages are many; I can program my play-list and listen all night long in the bedroom rig without getting out of bed. My old records are clean and like new because I seldom handle them. I think you enjoy records more when you program the playlist for mood, and select LP's that generate that mood. Enjoy the music. |
Just recently, I upgraded my analog rig; I bought NOS tubes for the phono, and a new more expensive cartridge. In order to enjoy these upgrades without futzing with the TT and record each time I wanted to enjoy this improvement; I downloaded to the PC (for the third time) Presently, I'm enjoying the incredible improvement in nuance these improvements have made. (when "nuance" is improved, so is everything else) |
Someone asked an extremely dumb question on the internet "Why do records sound better"? Back in the day, my record player cost $200, plus $150 for the Shure cartridge, and that was quite common, When CD came along, it sounded much better, which is why everybody went to CD. People who had "high end" analog rigs said hold on a minute. We "commoners" didn't even know about high end analog rigs. Now to the bottom line, analog sounds better if, and only if, you have a high end analog rig; there is no mystery to that, the bottom line is MONEY. |
"how might we as audiophiles enjoy the convenience and cost savings of vinyl sound without vinyl ? Short answer; vinyl is cheap as it gets. Long answer to vinyl without vinyl; you could download master tapes to your PC, that would require pockets deeper than a country well, but it would be even better. |
Without reading through your entire post, I can tell you that with the right equipment, there is positively, absolutely, no difference in the sound of vinyl being played on your TT, and vinyl that has been ripped to your PC that is being played back. Some years ago, this debate was raging, and what I just stated was concluded. But you have to have the right equipment. Not favoring analog or digital, I listened to the PC people and the digital people, as well as "Stereophile", and I got it right. Everyday I listen to my vinyl that has been ripped to PC, with the confidence that it is no difference from listening to my TT through my analog rig. As a matter of fact, when I upgrade my cartridge, or anything else, I have to do the recording process all over if I want to enjoy the upgrade. I hope this answers your question. |