Vinyl / High qual analog tape / High-res digital -- One of these is not like the other
One common theme I read on forums here and elsewhere is the view by many that there is a pecking order in quality:
Top - High Quality Analog TapeNext - VinylBottom - Digital
I will go out on a limb and say that most, probably approaching almost all those making the claim have never heard a really good analog tape machine and high resolution digital side by side, and have certainly never heard what comes out the other end when it goes to vinyl, i.e. heard the tape/file that went to the cutter, then compared that to the resultant record?
High quality analog tape and high quality digital sound very similar. Add a bit of hiss (noise) to digital, and it would be very difficult to tell which is which. It is not digital, especially high resolution digital that is the outlier, it is vinyl. It is different from the other two. Perhaps if more people actually experienced this, they would have a different approach to analog/vinyl?
This post has nothing to do with personal taste. If you prefer vinyl, then stick with it and enjoy it. There are reasons why the analog processing that occurs in the vinyl "process" can result in a sound that pleases someone. However, knowledge is good, and if you are set in your ways, you may be preventing the next leap.
For example, the words transparent, congealed, analytical, boomy, synthetic, etched, tinny, two-dimensional and compressed can have different meanings to different people.
These words are variable in their meaning similarly for the scientific so called mind or for the ignorant so called audiophiles....These words are related to the particular environment where they are used one time and by the particular people that use them.... No objective content of these words exist in the absolute sense....They are only relative orientation of meaning without an absolute consensus and they are not reducible to the reading of some numbers dials either....
Dear @magister : """
Subjectivity versus objectivity is an obsolete scientific false debate for almost a century now....
The repudiation of subjective perception has no scientific meaning at all, and reduction of subjective perception to a "so called" objective one no ultimate meaning....Only a dialogue is meaningful but on the basis of the ultimate irreducibility of individual perception to any numbers there is.... ""
I have to disagree with you in what you posted there and the post that followed this one.
Maybe could be because I'm talking of different subjects than you and other gentlemans.
Even if through my posts you can think I'm diminished subjective opinions I want to confirm again that I did not and don't and my expression of the word " illusion " was not with a despective or dimished way to offend in no way the subjective gentleman opinios and if they take it ( as you ) my apolize for those.
Now, exist no debate between subjectivity and objectivity. It can't exist in any way.
Facts/objectivity are inviolable and with absolute certainty when in the other side opinions/subjectivity can't gives any one else but the one person with that opinion absolute certainty.
The main subject in what I posted before is to know not what we like to listen and its quality levels but if the self inherent LP limitations non-accurated technology can be more accurated than the digital medium. Again what you like it or what I like it is almost unimportant to other than you or me and useless to analize that accuracy levels in those way different mediums to listen MUSIC. No room/system quality levels can't change/improve any medium limitations.
Here two of my posts to read it as an " abstract " way and only as facts where exist not only certainty about but a lot of measured information all over not only the links other gentlemans posted but over the internet:
Till today any advocated audiophile to LP over digital on which is truer to the recording posted yet any single fact that could tell us the LP superiority to be truer to the recording than digital medium. This is the subject idea I'm posting in this thread but maybe I did not understnd it what you or other gentlemans are or have under discussion.
If someone says cable A sounds better than cable B, that is a Subjective opinion. If that same someone can reliably differentiate between cable A and cable B in a controlled blind test, then we have Objective proof the cables are different.
Anyone who doesn't believe in blind testing really does not trust their ears no matter what they may claim.
Pure baloney!! This is the oldest con game in audio, so-called “objectivists” dismissing listening results when listening results are empirical evidence, you know, one of the foundations of the scientific method. Don’t let the pseudo scientists con you. At least we have identified 👀 them. Just more jibber jabber from the usual suspects. Be vigilant, they can be very slippery, like eels.
I want to say that what i read incline me toward your view point in principle, but in concrete experience with one anolog audio system or another more refined, i am not sure that a very refined analog system will not surprise my factual reasons to place the digital technology ahead ( the reasons you described)...
I respect you and thanks you for your interesting posts anyway....
When a dude who lies about his qualifications as a physicist (I read old posts), sells Magic Pebbles to improve sound, and claims to improve audio via a telephone call .. just the call, not a call about audio, ...calls you a pseudo scientist, I will take that as high praise. Must really burn your Geoff that you never got published, not once, after that paper in what Junior High and people who actually contribute to science like me get published, cited, even invited to speak. Your envy and jealously is really ugly but keep doing you.
Your repeated Wrong use of the term empirical evidence shows you do not know how to do research and I expect you never have. What you describe as empirical evidence is anecdotal evidence. I borrowed someone else's words but here, let me spell it out for you. Maybe you will learn something.
Anecdotal evidence is using your personal experiences and stories to illustrate your point. Empirical evidence is measured, unbiased, and replicable.
As a layperson in research I can understand your error. Empirical evidence can be observational, not hard measured, and you make the leap that that includes anecdotal evidence but it does not. It still needs to meet the scientific requirements of unbiased and repeatable
It is quite clear that the pseudo scientist is the one who does not even understand what empirical evidence is. Sad really that he works so hard, 16 hours a day, to mislead others. Not sure what is the motivation for that.
For whatever it is worth, I followed mikelavigne's recommendation and bought Ferit Odom's Dameronia with Strings LP.
My system, especially turntable, is very limited but I do have to admit that this LP sounds "good". I will not claim it has this or that, loudness wars, natural, accurate, and whatever else is argued here, but, if you like that kind of music, I would recommend you try it. There is also a CD version of it. I think it comes from same analog tapes, but it exists.
Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation.[1] The term comes from the Greek word for experience, ἐμπειρία (empeiría).
It’s clear robberrttddidd is a pseudo scientist, not a very good one.
roberttdid OP When a dude who lies about his qualifications as a physicist (I read old posts), sells Magic Pebbles to improve sound, and claims to improve audio via a telephone call .. just the call, not a call about audio, ...calls you a pseudo scientist, I will take that as high praise. Must really burn your Geoff that you never got published, not once, after that paper in what Junior High and people who actually contribute to science like me get published, cited, even invited to speak. Your envy and jealously is really ugly but keep doing you.
>>>You are one angry pseudo scientist. 😡 Are you trying out for the angry old fart on 12 Angry Men? 😃 A device only has to be ahead of the average Joe Blow’s understanding to be considered magic or a hoax. Everything’s topsy turvy, me topsy, you turvy. 🤗
It is available on acousticsounds.com for about $50. If you like it on youtube, you may want to buy it. Again, I do not stand behind its technical marvels, but think it may be pleasing.
I wonder who wrote this .... and whether they are a real scientist, or a quack?
"Götterdämmerung Let’s say a recording was made of a live performance of Götterdämmerung with the Berliner Philharmoniker on July 21, 1930 between 12 Noon and 5 PM. During the performance the actual time coordinates of what was then Present Time - a unique time coordinate for each instant of the performance - are somehow captured on the recording along with the acoustic information of the musical instruments and singers. When the recording of Götterdämmerung is played at some point in the future - say, one day in 2010 - the stream of time coordinates from July 21, 1930 is projected into the listening room by the speakers along along with the acoustic information. The two out-of-synch streams of time coordinates - the Past Time coordinates from July 21, 1930 and the Present Time coordinates - confuse the listener and reduce his sensory acuity. So, even though the glorious sound of the Berliner Philharmoniker is reproduced in the room the listener cannot hear it in all its glory. "
p.s. the paragraph about predators and the internal clock ... ya, that is all pretty much quackery too, not to mention we evolved from animals that had the ability to measure direction and location with sound site, 10's of millions of years before the "dawn of man", of course many lower animals can do this as well.
This is what happens sometimes when your friend and humble narrator comes back here from the future trying help out fellow audiophiles. I get stoned and crucified by knuckle dragging mossbacks on some weird mission to make everyone as ignorant as they are. New pseudo scientist, same as the old pseudo scientist. 🎶
"I think I will order it as well, even to provide a common reference for discussions."
Guys, do not blame me later if it is not what you expect. I am not claiming it is superior in any way to anything else. I do claim it seems like a good recording to me.
On the other hand, it is recent, it is purely analog, and it seems that they did try to make it as good as it gets at this point. So, maybe it is worth being an analog reference.
No worries glupson, if a few of us have it in analog, it will be something to discuss. I am always interested in the state of the art, no matter the media.
On another topic, it seems a certain pseudo scientist likes to dish it out, but doesn't like the taste when he is fed it. Do you think he is triggered by my posts that reference actual science related to audio? Maybe? To this day I have yet to see a piece of electronic equipment that used magic pebbles for emi shielding.
I bought orange vinyl and when I sent that link to mikelavigne before my purchase he said it was the same record that he has (number, I guess). He did not comment on the color, though. In any case, the orange one sounds just fine to me, but do not tell geoffkait. He will recommend you paint it green. At the same time, I do recommend you play it in clockwise fashion. It is, in fact, directional.
You’ll never believe what happened. I bought some of the original Mercury Living Presence recordings on cassette. For example Suppe Overtures with Paray and Detroit, also Saint-Seans Symphony No. 3 Organ also with Paray and Detroit. Absolutely better dynamics than CD, maybe on par with the record and better tonality than CD. Also listened to Fennell and Eastman Wind Ensemble - Ruffles and Flourishes. Sweet! These tapes exhibit tremendous fullness and speed in the lower and upper bass.
I bought orange vinyl and when I sent that link to mikelavigne before my purchase he said it was the same record that he has (number, I guess). He did not comment on the color, though. In any case, the orange one sounds just fine to me, but do not tell geoffkait. He will recommend you paint it green. At the same time, I do recommend you play it in clockwise fashion. It is, in fact, directional.
this record only was pressed in the orange vinyl to my knowledge. in any case it sounds superb.
i have 2 copies; one that i got in a box set directly from Turkey, and another from Acoustic Sounds as a back up.
on another forum one member is a local Turkish friend of Ferit Odman;
i might actually be able to acquire a copy of the master tape of this recording.
I wonder if people would be interested in a r2r edition of Dameronia with strings. He has the master tape. If enough people is commited, I can convince him for a limited run.
here is where it gets interesting to compare the source tape, the vinyl and a digital transfer. then a few get an ’ah ha’ moment. done it many times. i compare vinyl and the digital every day for years. don’t always pull out the tape.
I ordered Dameronia with Strings on XRCD24 Directly recorded to half-inch analog tape • Mastered Using K2 Technology! • Mastered by Tohru Kotetsu at JVC Mastering Studio in Japan I'll see if I can tell a difference to Flac 44.1 on Quboz.
The whole concept of "K2" is stuck in the 80's sort of like Mr. Pebbles. This is a completely meaningless concept within any modern studio or playback system ... and not even really "modern". Note they are "recording engineers", so not really "Engineers" w.r.t. having a proper understanding of the underlying technology. Most recording engineers have shockingly little understanding of the underlying technology they are working with.
Development History of K2
The development of K2 was started in response to calls from
recording engineers in Victor Studio. They objected to the common idea
that there was absolutely no change in sound quality no matter how many
times the original data was copied when the music media is transferred
from analog records across to digital CDs. Because digitalizing sound is
encoded in combinations of zeros and ones. Although no changes occur in
theory, the studio engineers claimed that there was a clear difference
between the sound quality of the original master and the copied
sub-master. So the engineers at JVCKENWOOD set about to clarify the
reason for this. Subsequently, it was discovered that although the
digital data was exactly the same, electrical distortion (jitter,
rippling), etc. occurred when the data was being recorded and saved,
which had an adverse effect when converting music played back in digital
into analog, thereby proving that changes did occur in sound quality.
An attempt by the two engineers to improve the changes in sound quality
that occurred at this time led to the original version of K2, which was
named the “K2 Interface.”
Dear @roberttdid : "
I think I will order it as well,...."
I bougth it not because I need it ( I own to many LPs. ) but to compare it with some of my best quality level performance LPs.
As I said most of the time I listened to LP, rigth from start I'm accustomed to the LP kind of sound.
No I do not buy the digital version, really don't care about.
I like some Original Motion Picture kind of music that normally were recorded digital ( CDs. ) and only when appears the LP version I bougth in the two mediums. Till today and even that the LP versions are " audiophile " kind/type of LPs no one beats ( yet. ) to the original digital recording.
You are cute when you are triggered. It is easy to tell, your language will become more and more on the vulgar side. You like to dish it out, but you don't take it too well. Isn't that the sign of an insecure bully?
geoffkait23,260 posts07-06-2020 2:40pmStuck
in the 80s? Looking in the mirror again, eh, Mr. Know-it-all? I am from
the future, but sadly for you it’s not your future because you don’t
listen to your superiors. You only run your mouth. That’s why you can’t
progress past the newbie stage. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a
reason. roberttdid same jackass as roberttcan.
It appears you’re the one who’s triggered, Mr. Smarty Pants, you’re stalking me so much your nose is probably brown. If I can make a suggestion, go back to whatever backwater school you went to and demand your money back.
A few days ago I looked my my "Related to you" posts summary. The last word in the first seven entries was by no one other than our illustrious Mr. Pebbles. However, upon inspection, I had posted in 6 of those 7 threads before Mr. Pebbles. You doth protest to much Mr. Pebbles, for the stalker is thee. It would be interesting if you had something remotely worthy of a reasoned response every once in a while, but alas, all I have to look forward to are attempts at pithy ad-homs. How droll (and predictable).
No point in looking at the rankings for post-graduate with you as you never made it past under-grad. I believe you were the butt of a joke in Big-Bang-Theory once.
Stop creeping me out. You obviously have deep personality problems. My advice to you is seek professional help. Do it ASAP. And stop stalking me. You are an example,of what happens when you sit in front of an oscilloscope for too long. Before you know it your brain turns to pablum.
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